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Thread: Another way to blend alloys

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    Another way to blend alloys

    Don't remember seeing this elsewhere. Might be of value to some folks.

    MAKING BULLET ALLOYS

    A lot has been written on bullet metals, but not much on making up
    alloys with specific desired properties. Most bullet casters have
    scrap and salvage lead alloys on hand which they wish to use. Can you
    provide guidance for making up alloys from such metal to get a specific
    product?

    ANSWER: The following method does this. It is based on two
    observations made during long-term investigation of cast bullet alloys
    by the staff of The American Rifleman.

    1. The characteristic of a bullet alloy which is most fundamental to
    performance is strength, indicated by hardness.

    2. The hardness of a mixture of usual lead alloys is approximately in
    proportion to hardness of the separate alloys in it. This includes
    straight lead, Brinell hardness 5, as a constituent.

    Hardness of the salvaged alloys to be used therefore must be know. The
    American Rifleman has given a simple method for measuring it: "Brinell
    Hardness", January, 1969, p. 57; and "Brinell Hardness Measure",
    December, 1974, p. 63-64.

    The product having desired hardness is obtained by using the metals on
    hand in quantities according to the hardness each supplies. One-lb.
    pigs cast in the small iron molds sold to handloaders are most
    convenient. The following was made up most recently, aiming at a
    Brinell hardness of 15 and using three lots of scrap found to be of 20,
    17«, and 12« Brinell hardness number respectively. These weights of
    each therefore were taken:

    WT. BHN
    2 x 20 = 40
    3 x 17 = 51
    4 x 12.5 = 50
    __ ___
    9.5 141

    The BHN to be expected from this calculation obviously is 141 / 9.5 =
    14.8. The product should approximate this. In this case it actually had
    a hardness of 16.5. Alloys made up by this method regularly show a
    slightly greater hardness than their proportions indicate, which can be
    allowed for in the make-up or accepted as being tolerably close.

    The above proportions were arrived at by a few trial calculations.
    These often show that a desired result can be obtained in more than one
    way. Thus the method has considerable flexibility. For example, a
    calculation with the same three available metals shows that weights of
    1, 5, and 3 lbs respectively could be expected to produce an alloy of
    (1x20 + 5x17.5 + 3x12.5) / 9 = BHN 16, close though a little harder than
    wanted. If only the last two lots of scrap were on hand, 5 and 4 lbs.
    of these could be expected to give (5x17.5 + 4x12.5) / 9 = 15.5,
    practically the same as the alloy made above.

    Thus a few trial calculations, with the simplest kind of arithmetic,
    indicate at once the combination(s) of available metals which will make
    an alloy of specified hardness, within the physical possibilities of
    course.___E.H.H.

    from CAST BULLET
    Col. E.H. Harrison
    NRA 1979, p. 90

    ..........END OF FILE..........
    Last edited by Mike W1; 02-06-2022 at 10:22 AM. Reason: errors
    Mike

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  2. #2
    Boolit Mold
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    Hi I’ve been advised to use a 20 to 1 mix for casting 535 grain bullets for my 45/70 Sharps Pedersoli, is this a good mix & what weights of lead & tin would I use in a 10 pound melter

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoddy View Post
    Hi I’ve been advised to use a 20 to 1 mix for casting 535 grain bullets for my 45/70 Sharps Pedersoli, is this a good mix & what weights of lead & tin would I use in a 10 pound melter
    I can't give you any advice on the alloy for your purpose. 20 to one simply means 20 parts lead to one part tin (by weight). 20 oz lead with 1 oz. tin or 20 lbs lead to 1 lb. tin. etc.
    Mike

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  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master
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    This is useless information...mathematics is racist and there is no one right answer.
    Don Verna


  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Thats interesting but its more math than most casters will put into it and probably more exact than most of us need.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3 per Rotometals.

    Been thinking about Stoddy. My "guess" is that a real hard bullet is not needed or desired. And tin is expensive!!

    Were it me I'd check with some experienced folks before mixing that 20/1. 40/1 would be 2.5% tin and much over 1% shouldn't be necessary to cast well.
    Mike

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    One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    I use a simple mixing cross i learned a while ago from a youtube caster in Germany and later dimenstrsted by FortuneCookie 45.

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  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    I appreciate Mike W1 bringing this up. It is SIMPLE math that requires one to KNOW (or assume) the specific Brinell hardness of each constituent prior to melting differing amounts of them together. Brinell Hardness Number (BHN) derivation in this manner is an approximation.

    BHN of constituents can be measured, "accepted as being tolerably close", by "Testing hardness with pencils" (a sticky on this forum). The "Pencil Method" isn't exact, and it doesn't need to be, because casting boolits from homemade alloy is not Rocket Science (calculated for human and hardware survival to the 16th significant figure to the right of the decimal point).

    Mike W1 - please edit your calculation "(1*20 + 5*17« + 3*12«) / 9 = BHN 1" to "...BHN 16«".

    How were you able to type the double carrot symbol ("«" - copy and pasted here and there ^). Thanks.
    Last edited by Land Owner; 02-02-2022 at 07:03 AM.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike W1 View Post
    For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3 per Rotometals.

    Been thinking about Stoddy. My "guess" is that a real hard bullet is not needed or desired. And tin is expensive!!

    Were it me I'd check with some experienced folks before mixing that 20/1. 40/1 would be 2.5% tin and much over 1% shouldn't be necessary to cast well.
    You would be correct with a tertiary alloy containing antimony but in a binary alloy tin is used for hardening as well as assisting in casting ease and with making the alloy malleable.
    Rick

  10. #10
    Boolit Master hc18flyer's Avatar
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    I use Bumpo's alloy calculator and have a alloy to use in our .45-70 for 13-1400 fps loads. My alloy will be 1.5% tin, 1.5% antimony, and 97% lead, air cooled. Pretty sure I remember seeing 1 to 20 for 45-70, as stated before tin is spendy, so I will use a little antimony. YMMV, hc18flyer

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Land Owner View Post
    I appreciate Mike W1 bringing this up. It is SIMPLE math that requires one to KNOW (or assume) the specific Brinell hardness of each constituent prior to melting differing amounts of them together. Brinell Hardness Number (BHN) derivation in this manner is an approximation.

    BHN of constituents can be measured, "accepted as being tolerably close", by "Testing hardness with pencils" (a sticky on this forum). The "Pencil Method" isn't exact, and it doesn't need to be, because casting boolits from homemade alloy is not Rocket Science (calculated for human and hardware survival to the 16th significant figure to the right of the decimal point).

    Mike W1 - please edit your calculation "(1*20 + 5*17« + 3*12«) / 9 = BHN 1" to "...BHN 16«".

    How were you able to type the double carrot symbol ("«" - copy and pasted here and there ^). Thanks.
    Did do the editing on things. Poor typing on my part way back when.

    Some symbols I've found useful are made by holding down the ALT key and typing the little code in Release and they should appear. Have to use the number pad on a desktop though I've found no way to do it on a laptop.

    ► = 16
    ◄ = 17
    ▲ = 30
    ▼ = 31
    < = 60
    > = 62
    ^ = 94
    « = 174
    » = 175
    ° = 0176
    ± = 0177
    ¢ = 0162
    Mike

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    One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks for the list of symbols!!

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    ^^^ +1

    Knowing there "had to be" a list, see this link for all ALT CODES
    https://www.alt-codes.net/
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoddy View Post
    Hi I’ve been advised to use a 20 to 1 mix for casting 535 grain bullets for my 45/70 Sharps Pedersoli, is this a good mix & what weights of lead & tin would I use in a 10 pound melter
    It is a good start and a popular ratio and it works well in my 45-70. Next up is 25:1 and I'll keep going lighter on the tin until the mould tells me to stop. A friend of mine likes 40:1, another guy swears by 16:1.

    In your pot, 10 pounds plus 1 would be 10:1
    20 pounds plus 1 would be 20:1, but you only have a 10 pound pot, so divide everything.

    10 pounds plus 1 half pound = 20:1 (20 half pounds + 1 half pound). The question is, does 10 pounds fill your pot to the brim?
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master
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    8 oz of tin, 10 # lead, 20-1 =+-.000000000000000001n/m-b=c
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    [QUOTE =+-.000000000000000001n/m-b=c[/QUOTE]

    You have my curiousity going here sir. What exactly does all the above mean?
    Mike

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    One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”
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  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    There's an error in the article, either computation or typographical. 3 x 17 = 51, not 61. This makes the sum 141, not 151. 141 divided by 9.5 gives ~14.8 as a calculated Brinnell hardness, vs. 16.5 as a measured hardness. This makes for a 10% deviation. Perhaps this is still close enough for most purposes.
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
    He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Hardness of the salvaged alloys to be used therefore must be know(n) There in is the rub. I hate to see the demise of COWW being commonly available, it is a known quality and would do for most uses with little more than 1% tin added to improve fill out, if even that was needed. Proving that your lead is lead and your tin, tin can be quite another matter.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    w/o the "Real" tools to test this stuff. We have to test every step along the way & keep good notes. In the old days we just melted WW wheel Weights & cast decent pistol bullets. Now I melt. flux & clean every pile of scrap I find. Label it, cast some & test it. I only add tin / pewter when needed to those 40 lb. batches I make up as I get them. I'm really fussy about the stuff I use in rifle bullets. I will add 1 lb. or two pounds of Pewter scrap to those ingots per 40 lbs I process for rifle bullets. I hope that helps you guys. unclemikeinct
    Last edited by unclemikeinct; 02-06-2022 at 06:31 AM. Reason: add to

  20. #20
    Boolit Mold
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    Following Rotometals guidelines on tin and antimony always gets me in the ballpark. Usually I have a point or 2 more hardness but very functional.

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