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Thread: 429251 & 429383 & 429184

  1. #1
    I'm A Honcho!



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    429251 & 429383 & 429184

    Does someone have information on the differences between these moulds?

    They are all Round Nose 44-caliber moulds of mid-weight (235-255grs).

    According to Lyman's Third Edition Cast Bullet Handbook, they list the weights as:

    #184 - 235grs
    #251 - 255grs
    #383 - 245grs

    (Cast pics data shows the same weight figures - of course that data is taken from Lyman as well.)

    I've found a whopping ONE post here about the 184 boolit that says it was the original Black Powder 44 Russian boolit, and the weight is described as significantly heavier than what Lyman lists. (Presumably Lyman's listed weight is for Lyman #2 alloy, and I don't know what alloy the poster used.)

    I'm really interested if anyone can show me the difference in nose profile between them. (I'm sure there are base differences too, but I'm wondering about noses specifically - hopefully with a measurement from the edge of the front band to the tip of the nose, please? )
    Group Buy Honcho for: 9x135 Slippery, 45x200 Target (H&G68), 45x230 Gov't Profile, 44x265 Keith


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  2. #2
    Boolit Master Glen's Avatar
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    The Ideal Handbook #33 shows the 429184 back in the Special List of bullets. It is listed as a 256 grain RN. It has a fairly short bearing surface (only about 0.300"), 2 narrow lube grooves, no crimp groove, and a long bore riding nose (cylindrical with a ~1R radius nose). Presumably, this bullet was intended to be crimped over the forward driving band. It is listed as being for the .44 S&W Russian cartridge. Making measurements from the drawing, nose length looks to be about .465" (overall bullet length 0.765").

    The 429251 is listed as the standard (Ideal's emphasis) bullet for the .44 S&W Russian and .44 Special, and this is the profile that I associate with the standard lead RN in the .44 Special. It is listed as weighing 253 grains and has a bearing surface of about 60% of the bullet's length, with 2 narrow lube grooves, a beveled crimp groove and a "normal" roundnose profile (e.g. similar to the 358311). This is a very accurate bullet. Nose length appears to be about .385".

    The 429383 is very similar to the 429251 except that the 2 narrow lube grooves have been replaced by 1 large, flat-bottomed lube groove (i.e. like Elmer Keith liked).
    Glen

  3. #3
    I'm A Honcho!



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    Thanks Glen, that clears things up quite well for me.

    I wonder if anyone out there has a half-dozen to 10 well-cast 429251s they could part with?
    Group Buy Honcho for: 9x135 Slippery, 45x200 Target (H&G68), 45x230 Gov't Profile, 44x265 Keith


    E-mail or PM me if you have one of the following commemorative Glocks you'd like to sell: FBI 100yr, Bell Helo, FOP Lodge1, Kiowa Warrior, SCI, and any new/unknown-to-me commemoratives.

  4. #4
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    Glen (and any other interested parties),

    I just received some boolits from a fellow member here that were cast in the 429184 mould, and they shed some light on this situation.

    Far be it from me to refute Lyman's words about their own moulds, but after looking at the 184 boolits and the 251 boolits, I'd say the 184 nose profile matches the factory swaged 246gr LRN boolits in the 44 Special factory ammo FAR BETTER than the 251 boolits. The 251s are slightly shorter and noticeably more pointed in profile compared to the factory 246gr swaged RN, whereas the 184 boolit has an identical profile, if we would remove approximately the bottom .050" of the nose above the front driving band...

    Interestingly, the front driving band/crimp groove design on this boolit is very unique. The forward drive band measures .420"-.425". Just above that is an angled indentation, which I believe is the crimp groove. (It's shaped like the bottom half of an hour-glass, not like a Keith or typical Lyman crimp groove - the angle is very shallow.) It is so narrow that I can't get the thinnest part of my calipers to go down into it, so I have no dimension for the "bottom" of the crimp groove. Then, just above the crimp groove, the nose widens out a few thousandths (I can feel it bump outward from the crimp groove with my fingernail) to .4165"-.4185". Imagining loading this in a 44 Russian case, I imagine in my mind's eye that this profile will give a very similar effect to a heel bullet, but with an inside-lubed bullet... This makes sense and is consistent with Lyman's description that this was the original boolit for the 44 Russian...

    The middle drive band measures, wait for it, .434"-.435", and the bottom drive band is a consistent .436" all the way around... Between the bore-riding long nose and the over-sized drive bands, I can well imagine why the 44 Russian shot so well in the early industrial-revolution revolvers of the late 19th Century. (Remarkably good groups at long pistol range even for today.)

    If what I'm describing as the crimp groove is correct, the nose length (out-of-case length) for this boolit is approximately: .455", and the bearing surface (crimp groove to base of boolit) is approximately: .320". OAL of the bullet is .7725", so my measurements are off by about 2-1/2 thousandths, but I don't have a way to consistently get down into the crimp groove, so these are pretty close.

    I want to especially thank lawboy for sending me some of these. They are some great grist for the mill in my mind on working out a new boolit.

    And, on that note, can someone confirm for me what the bore diameter for 44-caliber is?
    Group Buy Honcho for: 9x135 Slippery, 45x200 Target (H&G68), 45x230 Gov't Profile, 44x265 Keith


    E-mail or PM me if you have one of the following commemorative Glocks you'd like to sell: FBI 100yr, Bell Helo, FOP Lodge1, Kiowa Warrior, SCI, and any new/unknown-to-me commemoratives.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master lawboy's Avatar
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    You are welcome for the boolits and thank you for all this work and analysis. I am far to lazy to do all that measuring! I do think you are right about the crimp groove and FWIW, I seat and crimp into that location when loading these pills into 44 Special cases. They do shoot well.

  6. #6
    I'm A Honcho!



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    Well, it's a very neat boolit. I'm going to load one into a 44 Russian case just to have as a sample of an original-style loaded round.

    I'm going to take the three I marked up with the calipers by taking measurements, and size and load them, probably in 44 Special cases, and put them on target when I'm having a good day of shooting... The rest will be preserved so I can get a good, accurate drawing of the design from somewhere. With that, I can start manipulating and changing the dimensions to get where I'm headed and graft the newly modified nose onto a different base, etc.

    BTW, those were some nicely-cast boolits. Perfect fill-out, flat bases, and nice hardness. Looks like my older, higher-antimony & tin content WW alloy.

    Thanks again!
    Group Buy Honcho for: 9x135 Slippery, 45x200 Target (H&G68), 45x230 Gov't Profile, 44x265 Keith


    E-mail or PM me if you have one of the following commemorative Glocks you'd like to sell: FBI 100yr, Bell Helo, FOP Lodge1, Kiowa Warrior, SCI, and any new/unknown-to-me commemoratives.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check