Holy cow! :takinWiz:
These internet ...ahem...seed spitting contests are always fun to watch.
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Holy cow! :takinWiz:
These internet ...ahem...seed spitting contests are always fun to watch.
Glad I inspired you and now I am inspired by your results, just have to work the time angle. The Lothar Walther barrels are indeed good and I have one on a pellet rifle. However "poorly" made you think your rifle may be (perhaps you "bubba'd it?) it still is far from a "factory rifle" and ergo falls into the "custom" catagory as in "customised" even if you did the work yourself.Originally Posted by StarMetal
Again, however, there were a couple specific questions I asked you in a previous post (actually 2 previous posts). Could I have an answer?
I always look forward to these challenges. Now I've got some bullets to cast.......
Larry Gibson
303Guy
On the RPM issue, I accept that there is such a threashold but my question is on where that threashold is? It must surely be boolit diameter specific? Or boolit diameter/length specific maybe?
The threshold I commonly mention is for regular cast bullets of the bore riding nose type. For most calibers up through 8mm that is in the 120-140,000 RPM range. As calibers get larger the RPM threshold goes up. The reason is, given equal defects, the defect in a 170 gr 30 cal cast bullet is a larger % of the mass of the bullet than in a 250 gr .35 caliber bullet. Of course if we go up into even larger bullets the % gets even smaller. The larger the % of themass the defect is the greater the imbalance. Also with larger caliber bullets if the defect is on the exterior (most are caused during accelleration and are on the exterior) it is farther from the center of spin and travels at a slower rotational velocity than an equal defect on a smaller caliber bullet. The slower rotational velocity of the defect (or mor appropriatly where the imbalance is) the less affect the centrafugal force has on it. It may not seem like much of a difference but at 140-200,00+ RPM the differences are magnified tremdously.
The RPM threshold is not a fixed number because the other variables such as the design of the bullet, rate of acclleration, the alloy, etc. also have their effect on just where that threshold is. However rest assured that any cast bullet will have a RPM threshold. It can be pushed high but it will happen. Mostly it has to do with how well we control the obturation of the bullet during acclleration given a well cast bullet that "fits". The larger the amount of obturation, upsetting, bending, set back, crooked base, etc. that occurs to the bullet during accelleration the lower the RPM threshold will be.
Taking the question further, how much does the boolit length and pressure threashold (yield stress related) influence the issue? (Keeping in mind that lead flows under stress).
[Cast bullets of regular design obviously can shoot pretty well under the RPM threshold even if somewhat ill fitting. Ideally to push the RPM threshold the bullet must fit the neck of the cartridge, the throat and the lead with little nose extending into the bore. Note the picture of the GB bullet Starmetal used and the 266455 I use). The yeild stress of the alloy then determines how much obturation there is given the accelleration rate. A soft ductle alloy is preferable because the set back of the bullet during accelleration will be even and the balance of the bullet will be maintained. There is a balance to found of ally hardness and it's ductle ability under accellleration. Hard brittle alloys are prone to bend and/or chip during accelleration which creates imbalances.[/I]
Finally, muzzle pressure - if the muzzle pressure is too high the boolit could be 'bumped up' as it exits the muzzle?[/QUOTE]
I'm not a believer in that theory. I've measured enough time pressure curves of a multitude of different loads now to know that the "exit pressures" of cast bullet loads, even the actual high velocity ones, are of such that they are well below the tensle strength of even pure lead. Given a normal powder for say an '06 jacketed max load the exit pressure from even a 20" barrel is down in the 7,000 to 9,000 psi range. In 22 an longer barrels it is less.
Larry Gibson
Larry,
I'm sorry what questions are they specifically? I'm not answering the one on the technique, done told you that already.
Would you consider an E. R. Shaw barrel a custom barrel? I wouldn't. I consider custom as something the gunsmith did to make your barrel/rifle unique.
The dimensions on the barrel are: Bore .256 and groove .2639. Chamber is the standard 6.5x54MS. I gave you the length at 23 inches and it has the long freebore. I believe the neck chamber area is generous.
I have a Yugo 48B that was unissued and put a Williams receiver sight on it. With the Lee 175 grain bullet I've shot 5/8 groups with it using 844 surplus. Those rifles were made shortly after WWII and had been in storage for a very long time. Point being they are the old school barrels, actions, and triggers. No it's not a Swede, but rifle wise pretty close. Can it shoot consistent 5/8 groups? Probably, but I can't not with receiver sights. Shall I scope it?
You 98 Swede is about the same or more custom then mine. I'm not pillar bedded and I don't have an after market trigger. Say all you want about the old 110 trigger, but Savage isn't using it anymore either are they? I don't know what to tell you about the LW barrel, they are just a well made barrel and they are one of the largest barrel makers in the country if not the world. They have a plant here in Atlanta, GA and the one in Germany. Now if your M38 barrel is new I would expect it to pretty good. Look at how my Yugo 98 shoots and look how a lot of the 03 Springfields, Krag, Finns, and K31's shoot. Excuses Larry. I have a few friend that have 96 Swedes and did nothing but scoped them and had the bolts bent that out shoot most modern rifles.
Well let's see when I get a model 38 Swede. Inbetween then I'll be anxiously awaiting your 2300-2400 fps groups from you "custom" Swede.
Joe
Uh, Joe? I had no dog in this fight till you put me in it. My sole post was an answer to someone wondering if the Lee Cruise Missile was an easy one to get shooting fast. I told him the truth, it isn't. Not from a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. Anything north of 1600 fps gets pretty iffy with that boolit. Now, if you'd like to show us some of your famous "ragged one hole groups" made with a Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 with the factory barrel and the Cruise Missile then I will be the first guy to congratulate you. But a Walther-Lothar barrel in 6.5x54MS on a Savage 110 shooting a 140ish grain Loverin boolit is NOT a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser with the factory barrel shooting the Cruise Missile.
I still have no dog in this fight really. I'm just sitting back watching the blood letting over "secret rifles" and claims that we're all too stupid to safely handle the "secret information" that only the chosen few are privy to. It's been like this for years and I always hope someone will just be honest and open instead of secretive and clandestine. Whats the use of even posting? Is the whole purpose is just to show us we're too dumb to understand?
Larry say: The threshold I commonly mention is for regular cast bullets of the bore riding nose type.
Oh? I thought the bore riders were the abnormal. Not to matter, my Saeco 140 grain is a true bore rider without must bearing band length and I shoot it HV with accuracy from my 6.5 Grendel AR15.
By the way I don't shoot it out of the 6.5x54MS because even seated only to the gas check depth it doesn't begin to touch the throat. Remember I told you that the 6.5x54MS has a long freebore.
Looks like you're changing the rules on the rpm threshold theory. Now it's for a particular kind of cast bullet....the normal cast bullet of bore riding design.
Here's what I think are bore riders: The 314299/312299 and the Saeco 140 grain. I look at the 311284 as half and half. The one bullet you mentioned the 266455 is not a bore rider.
So what are we saying here? O.S.O.K. can't shoot bore riders if he wants accuracy and HV? Too many rules you keep making up as we go along. Tell you what, instead of making your recent loading technique post a sticky, why not make a sticky listing "all" of your rule/requires?
Joe
Thank you kindly, Larry.
That clarifies a few things for me.
(For example, more ductile alloys obturating more evenly ... I had wondered about inconsistencies in an alloys hardness, even from a slight temperature or cooling rate difference in the mold!)
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
StarMetal
Larry say: The threshold I commonly mention is for regular cast bullets of the bore riding nose type.
Oh? I thought the bore riders were the abnormal. Not to matter, my Saeco 140 grain is a true bore rider without must bearing band length and I shoot it HV with accuracy from my 6.5 Grendel AR15.
By the way I don't shoot it out of the 6.5x54MS because even seated only to the gas check depth it doesn't begin to touch the throat. Remember I told you that the 6.5x54MS has a long freebore.
Looks like you're changing the rules on the rpm threshold theory. Now it's for a particular kind of cast bullet....the normal cast bullet of bore riding design.
You are just plumb amazing Joe. You have pushed the RPM threshold successfully and I have congratulated you on your achievement and you still want to argue useless points. I have not changed the "rules". You were repeatedly ask to provide you definition of the RPM threshold on two other forums. You failed to do so then and now you say I'm changing the "rules"? I'm the one who has to continually correct your misconstruances (how do like that word!) regarding the RPM threshold and now you want to correct me! That is incredulous!
Here's what I think are bore riders: The 314299/312299 and the Saeco 140 grain.
You are correct.
I look at the 311284 as half and half.
You're entitled to your opinion.
The one bullet you mentioned the 266455 is not a bore rider.
You think!!!! How about it is a "Lovern design" just as I called it. Do you have a point to this nonsense?
So what are we saying here? O.S.O.K. can't shoot bore riders if he wants accuracy and HV? Too many rules you keep making up as we go along. Tell you what, instead of making your recent loading technique post a sticky, why not make a sticky listing "all" of your rule/requires?
Can you believe this folks, this is what he does with success.......
In another post you said you'd forgotten the two questions I asked again about for I can't recall how many times. Actually there are several questions I’ve asked in this thread that you’ve failed to answer. Here they are again as copied from the original post. I would appreciate an answer to them but since you’ve already admitted, agreed or whatever you want to call it that loading above the RPM threshold was "hard" then you've already answered the first question with a contradiction. Thus the other questions still remain unanswered.
BTW; I kindly asked you to answer 2 questions; "the whole concept of it really is easy" and you know how to "keep(ing) the powder combustion heat off the bullet" then why don't you just tell us instead of all the "secret" stuff ?” It would be nice and it would lend a lot of credibility to your posts if you would answer those 2 questions.
Additional questions; can you please now tell us how to shoot such cast bullet groups at such velocity in a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with original sights? That was the topic of this thread you know, or perhaps you don’t know that?
The additional question regarding you and 45 2.1 thinking your “secret” loads were “dangerous”; “Given my experience with the 6.5 MS and the loading data available quite frankly I do not by that "dangerous and a pressure raiser for sure" part and I don’t think anyone else other than 45 2.1 will either. Thus can you explain how a load of 29 gr of an equivalent 4895 is “dangerous” with a 130-140 gr cast bullet?
Larry Gibson
Last edited by Larry Gibson; 09-07-2009 at 06:57 PM.
To shoot groups like that out of the Swede you're either going to need a scope or a ransom rest (if there is one) for a rifle. Clarification of that I don't think there are too many men alive that can do that with issue iron sights merely because you just can't hold them that well as you can a scope....in my opinion. I know the rifle will do it.
As for the heat, that's a by product plus of the technique which I will not describe.
That one post of mine, which came after you made a nice post seems to have gotten you going again. Maybe if he had come before such post it would have been better.
A 6.5 bullet doesn't know what rifle it's fired from as much as a tire doesn't know if it's on an new corvette or a Model A Ford...it gets spun the same either way. I still had to deal with fitting all the areas of the barrel...that is throat, groove, bore, etc.. So I didn't have to size my bullets as large as say for a Swede. What's the big deal there? If you have a mould that throws them large I see no difference there. Maybe all I have for an advantage on the barrel is more uniformity and smoothness in the bore. We'll see on my next rifle....my 260 Remington on the 6.5 Arisaka action. Scoped, regular Boyd's walnut stock, and stock Jap trigger...and of course the low end E.R. Shaw barrel with fatter dimensions then the LW barrel...ok?
Joe
I'll say the same thing I said before. Pictures on the internet mean absolutely nothing to me and prove nothing. I can't take someone serious who doesn't give one shread of loading data up to and including the range. I have no intent of getting into it with you again but my offer from our last debate still stands although because of my job we'd have to make arrangements around my schedule.
I consider myself a fairly competent reloader and caster so if you trust me enough to let me know the secret a PM would be appreciated.
Last edited by Pat I.; 09-07-2009 at 08:13 PM.
StarMetal
To shoot groups like that out of the Swede you're either going to need a scope or a ransom rest (if there is one) for a rifle. Clarification of that I don't think there are too many men alive that can do that with issue iron sights merely because you just can't hold them that well as you can a scope....in my opinion. I know the rifle will do it.
Agreed. And if you'd have paid close attention to the posts here you'd have noticed the sub 2 moa you ranted about was with the Swede rifle and issue sights. I know sub 2 mo with the issue sights is quite possible so consitent sub 2 moa cast bullet loads at 2400 +/- fps should be doable, right?
As for the heat, that's a by product plus of the technique which I will not describe.
I'm still calling BS on this "non answer".
That one post of mine, which came after you made a nice post seems to have gotten you going again. Maybe if he had come before such post it would have been better.
I'm not "going again" just answering your questions and comments. Probably would have been better if that post had come first but seems as both of us were pounding the keyboard at the same time and the messages got crossed. It happens, no big deal and nothing to get excited about.
A 6.5 bullet doesn't know what rifle it's fired from as much as a tire doesn't know if it's on an new corvette or a Model A Ford...it gets spun the same either way.
Not quite so, It can be spun a lot harder on the Corvette and turned and twisted a lot harder too. You can get away with 2 ply cord tires on the models A for 100% of it's driving. What percentage of driving do you think they would last on the Corvette? The point is if you want performance you ust pick the right tire (design and construction) for the job. The same with cast bullets at high velocity.
I still had to deal with fitting all the areas of the barrel...that is throat, groove, bore, etc.. So I didn't have to size my bullets as large as say for a Swede. What's the big deal there?
Joe, I figured you knew better than that. If the bullet drops at .267 and you sized to .266 for the Swede and .264 for the MS the bullet is swaged more in the smaller sizing, the driving bands are wider, the grooves are shallower and the length of bearing surface increases. All of this makes for a better bullet that has less defects, less room for the bullet to callapse into and more bearing surface for better overall support. It is the simple reason why the 7mm "regular" cast bullets with bore riding noses fit your other 6.5 so well and shoot so well. They were never "regualr" 6.5 cast bullets to begin with and you custom (there's that word again) swaged them down to fit your 6.5. Hardly the same as someone buying a real "regular" 6.5 boring mould and using it.
If you have a mould that throws them large I see no difference there. Maybe all I have for an advantage on the barrel is more uniformity and smoothness in the bore. We'll see on my next rifle....my 260 Remington on the 6.5 Arisaka action. Scoped, regular Boyd's walnut stock, and stock Jap trigger...and of course the low end E.R. Shaw barrel with fatter dimensions then the LW barrel...ok?
As mentioned by others now in this thread if you have a rebarreled action with a commercial barrel in a new stock and a scope on it you basically aren't shooting a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle. That seems plain enough to all but you. I've had a E.R. Shaw 6.5-280 barrel for years as my long range rock chuck gun. The throat was shot out pretty bad at about 1800 round and i lost 1.5" of barrel when I set it back. It's got maybe 500 shots left in it. It always shot in the .5's and .6s with Hornady 129 gr SPs. I killed 2 rock chucks at a measured 800 yards with 3 shots (first shot hit just off the right side and i corrected for the misjudgement of the wind and smoked the two chucks with the next two shots). I tell you this because I've had several of their barrels over the years and they all shot well so I'm not buying your advance snivel about the E.R. Shaw barrel. However I still like the idea of shooting the Mex/Swede against your rifles, even with their custom barrels. Come to think of it I guess my Mex/Swede is a "custom" rifle also
Larry Gibson
Last edited by Larry Gibson; 09-07-2009 at 09:08 PM.
Bret,
I brought you in because I feel, heck I know, you've always doubted my groups.
By the way I'm going to shoot the cruise missile as soon as 45 2.1 casts me some up as I don't have that mould either.
I must be getting old, I'm beginning to get along with you.
Joe
Let's see, where do I jump in? Trying to remember what the 1967 L88 427 Corvette ran for plys in it's tires. Sure nothing comparable to today's tires. I knew when I posted that you would bring up horsepower. One of my motorhead friends told my an engine doesn't know what size carburetor it has on it. That's why you can pull the carb off some big cubic inch engine and put it on a much smaller one and it will run and visa versa. Yeah I know, you loose torque, mileage, power, etc., etc..StarMetal
To shoot groups like that out of the Swede you're either going to need a scope or a ransom rest (if there is one) for a rifle. Clarification of that I don't think there are too many men alive that can do that with issue iron sights merely because you just can't hold them that well as you can a scope....in my opinion. I know the rifle will do it.
Agreed. And if you'd have paid close attention to the posts here you'd have noticed the sub 2 moa you ranted about was with the Swede rifle and issue sights. I know sub 2 mo with the issue sights is quite possible so consitent sub 2 moa cast bullet loads at 2400 +/- fps should be doable, right?
As for the heat, that's a by product plus of the technique which I will not describe.
I'm still calling BS on this "non answer".
That one post of mine, which came after you made a nice post seems to have gotten you going again. Maybe if he had come before such post it would have been better.
I'm not "going again" just answering your questions and comments. Probably would have been better if that post had come first but seems as both of us were pounding the keyboard at the same time and the messages got crossed. It happens, no big deal and nothing to get excited about.
A 6.5 bullet doesn't know what rifle it's fired from as much as a tire doesn't know if it's on an new corvette or a Model A Ford...it gets spun the same either way.
Not quite so, It can be spun a lot harder on the Corvette and turned and twisted a lot harder too. You can get away with 2 ply cord tires on the models A for 100% of it's driving. What percentage of driving do you think they would last on the Corvette? The point is if you want performance you ust pick the right tire (design and construction) for the job. The same with cast bullets at high velocity.
I still had to deal with fitting all the areas of the barrel...that is throat, groove, bore, etc.. So I didn't have to size my bullets as large as say for a Swede. What's the big deal there?
Joe, I figured you knew better than that. If the bullet drops at .267 and you sized to .266 for the Swede and .264 for the MS the bullet is swaged more in the smaller sizing, the driving bands are wider, the grooves are shallower and the length of bearing surface increases. All of this makes for a better bullet that has less defects, less room for the bullet to callapse into and more bearing surface for better overall support. It is the simple reason why the 7mm "regular" cast bullets with bore riding noses fit your other 6.5 so well and shoot so well. They were never "regualr" 6.5 cast bullets to begin with and you custom (there's that word again) swaged them down to fit your 6.5. Hardly the same as someone buying a real "regular" 6.5 boring mould and using it.
If you have a mould that throws them large I see no difference there. Maybe all I have for an advantage on the barrel is more uniformity and smoothness in the bore. We'll see on my next rifle....my 260 Remington on the 6.5 Arisaka action. Scoped, regular Boyd's walnut stock, and stock Jap trigger...and of course the low end E.R. Shaw barrel with fatter dimensions then the LW barrel...ok?
As mentioned by others now in this thread if you have a rebarreled action with a commercial barrel in a new stock and a scope on it you basically aren't shooting a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle. That seems plain enough to all but you. I've had a E.R. Shaw 6.5-280 barrel for years as my long range rock chuck gun. The throat was shot out pretty bad at about 1800 round and i lost 1.5" of barrel when I set it back. It's got maybe 500 shots left in it. It always shot in the .5's and .6s with Hornady 129 gr SPs. I killed 2 rock chucks at a measured 800 yards with 3 shots (first shot hit just off the right side and i corrected for the misjudgement of the wind and smoked the two chucks with the next two shots). I tell you this because I've had several of their barrels over the years and they all shot well so I'm not buying your advance snivel about the E.R. Shaw barrel. However I still like the idea of shooting the Mex/Swede against your rifles, even with their custom barrels. Come to think of it I guess my Mex/Swede is a "custom" rifle also
Larry Gibson
I'm not mocking E.R. Shaw. I have one like I said on my 260 build and it's shoot damn fine for my use of it. But here's the diffference. When cleaning it I can feel the unevenness pushing that cleaning patch through it. That's one of the differences between a quality barrel and an economy barrel. I also have a Wilson (another economy barrel) on my 7.2x39 build and it's a tack driver with cast. Too bad that barrel doesn't have a fast twist and enough cartridge to drive a bullet to HV or I'd add it to my list of exceptional rifles and raz you about it. And not I'm not going to shoot some little super light weight bullet in it to do that.
You're right, my rifle isn't a 6.5 Swede and perhaps I sort of did high jack the thread. I could say the same about if a friend has a 220 Swift and he vaporizes bullets with it and I do it with a 22-250 and he says "Yeah, but that's not a 220 Swift". What I am saying is the Swede will do it. Just when it looks like I was going to thin out some of my collection I may be adding to it. What would you do if I get a M38, scope it, shoot it HV, and clean your clock? Maybe we will find out.
Meanwhile get to work on that Mexican Swede. I'll start on the 260.
Joe
Joe that's some mighty fine shootin'! At 208k rpm's no less, Austrian, Swede I don't care, I'm not a bigot/savage.
Charter Member #148
Thanks Scot!
Joe
StarMetal
Let's see, where do I jump in?
By answering the question in my post you copied would have been a good place to "jump in". I'm still waiting for the answers.
What would you do if I get a M38, scope it, shoot it HV, and clean your clock?
Only in your dreams
Maybe we will find out.
Meanwhile get to work on that Mexican Swede. I'll start on the 260.
That's the only way to find out, best of luck to you
Larry Gibson
StarMetal
Let's see, where do I jump in?
By answering the question in my post you copied would have been a good place to "jump in". I'm still waiting for the answers.
What would you do if I get a M38, scope it, shoot it HV, and clean your clock?
Only in your dreams
Maybe we will find out.
Meanwhile get to work on that Mexican Swede. I'll start on the 260.
That's the only way to find out, best of luck to you
Larry Gibson
You're not kidding. Will be hard finding a good M38. I may have to get a M96. I can kick myself in the butt. When we moved back to PA I went the Monroeville gunshow (Pittsburgh) area with my best friend. This was later part of 1980's. This one guy had 3 or 4 tables end to end and piled about one foot high with Swedes. I think they were $169 if I remember correctly. Should have bought two. Just wasn't into 6.5's or Swedes back then. Who would have known I've gotten to be a 6.5 fanatic, especially when my favorite rifle cartridge is/was the 7x57 Mauser?
Joe
Joe I have to agree with Scott...
You did good, met Larry's challenge and no amount of dancing around will change that!
As far as the "secret potentially dicey loading techniques" I am not interested in that as I think you can get around fast twists by other methods such as PP'ing at least for hunting accuracy which is all I am concerned about at this time...
Thanks Nrut.
Try a 25 caliber bullet for your paper patching. Heard you can also paper patch jacketed 25 caliber bullets for the 6.5.
Joe
You are right about the .25cal. patching up and I have some 100 gr. .25cal. boolits patched up for my .260 Rem. to try when I have time...
But that is for next summer as I met up with an unexpected retirement a few weeks ago an now have time to hunt this fall for the first time in the last 16 years or so...
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