You guys were right about the 6.5x55...

[StarMetal]

Joe when you get that 6.5x47 lapua wrung out give us a report with pictures.

Now now Scot, don't get the folks thinking that's what it is because it isn't.

Joe

[303Guy]

Compressing powder before seating the boolit, as the BP guys do?

Yup. If I don't the powder pushes the bullet out! (J-words). I do this with my hornet with Lil'Gun.

For my Brit, I am using AR2209/H4350 because it is slow enough to nearly fill the case. I am given to believe it does burn consistantly at lower pressure but that the pressure rise is quite slow which is what one wants with a cast boolit. It is warned not to use less than 75% load density with this type of powder. (I measure case capacity as the volume of the under the boolit). That amount of powder should produce low enough velocity for cast boolits.

Here is an example from Hodgdons that illustrates my thinking.

160 GR. HDY RN
Hodgdon H4831 44.0gr 2327fps 36,600 CUP
Hodgdon H4831 48.0gr 2524fps 46,000 CUP (compressed)

Here the max load is compressed so that indicates case volume. The starting load is given as 92% case volume. (Unknown compression of the max load). Theoretically one can go as low as 36gr with this powder @ 75% load density. But the velocity difference is 200fps at 92% load density. We want 1800fps or a 725fps velocity reduction - 71%. The actual decrees is exponential so a 80% reduction in pwder charge might give up the required 71% reduction in velocity so I would start there. But a warning - I have not read up on that powder so I do not know whether that low a load density is actually safe or not! So don't do it - it was just an illustration!

[David Caldwell]

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Caldwell
Slow it down to 1500 and use the gas check. If this produces a decent group, and I bet it will, it suggests slippage on the lands at high velocity. Not uncommon to get big time, group ruining slippage without getting leading.

dac
*****

I just built a bullet recovery system using a big water tank. I shot both the 55 grain (spoke of here) and 70 grain 22 caliber bullets into it at 2300 fps with my Colt HBAR with 7 twist. The alloy was 50/50 wheelweights/lead water dropped. The 55 grain bullet was ages quite some time. The 70 grain was less then a week. Calling this a recovery system might be wrong because it depends what you shoot into it and at what velocity. The 22's a HV get pretty well destroyed. At any rate there was enough bullet to examine the the rifling quite well. I can tell you that there was no slippage. Further more the rifling is very shallow in this barrel, especially when compared to a 6.5 Swede. I can't see him stripping through the rifling, but anything is possible. The only way to know is to recover a pretty intact bullet.
*****

Just try it. Load 5 with 13 - 14 gr. of 2400 and shoot the paper target.

[Buckshot]

...............These were shot several years ago"



The above was me doing some 'back testing' with an already proven load. The load and rifle was the same for the 4 targets. Velocity would have been around 1550 fps. I have the exact info but don't wanna go out to the shop in my socks . All rounds were stripped from the magazine, BUT:

Upper left target: Stripped, muzzle elevated, no crimp
Lower left: Stripped and fired w/o elevating the muzzle to orient the charge.
Upper right: Loaded round were given a dose of the Lee Facctory crimp, plus muzzle elevated.
Lower right: Lee factory crimp, stripped from the mag and fired.



The 6.5 moulds I have/had. Left Photo #1 Old Lyman SC-HP 128grs (sold to 45 2.1) #2 The Jumptrap 1st Edition 140gr Lee GB. This was way back in the Shooters.com days 3) Lyman 268645 so called "High Velocity" 152gr design. #4 The Oldfeller 170gr "Cruise Missle". A Lee SC GB on the old Aimoo board. Still avail from MidSouth as a special order.

Right Photo Left boolit is the 6.5 Kurtz 132 gr. This was a Lee 6 cavity job and was done to mimic the apparent high velocity ability of that old Lyman HP in the left photo. Cast of lino it drops at 128+ grs and is a super shooter. In the photo BOTH slugs are seated to engrave.



Left is engraving on the Kurtz, and on the right engraving on the Cruise Missle



Two different boolits in 2 different rifles. The charge was the same @ 35.0 grs or surplus WC872 ball. The top 2 targets are the 170gr Cruise Missle and the bottom 2 are the Lyman 268645 "High Velocity" slug. Nothing special was done for these loads. Thrown charges, and only visually inspected slugs. The cases bore the same headstamp. All were 5 rounds at 50 yards.

The upper and lower LEFT targets were fired from a 24" barrel. The upper and lower RIGHT targets were fired from a 29" barrel. WC872 ball was a surplus 20mm cannon powder and just a bit faster then chopped notebook paper. The same load in the same 24" barrel gave the heavier slug an 80 fps advantage. In the right 2 targets with the longer barrel, the heavier slug was again faster by 40 fps. You'll also notice in the TOP 2 targets, the heavier slug gained 100 fps over the 24" bbl, and in the bottom targets the lighter slug gained only 40 fps. Obvious to me the very slow powder LIKED the additional pressure casued by the heavier slug and longer barrel.



Pure speed tests. The load was WC872 surplus ball with a filler. Rifle was an as issued 1896 Swede. All same headstamp brass, thrown charges, visually inspected boolits. All targets are 10 rounds at 50 yards.

LEFT 2 TARGETS Shot with the Lyman 268645 slug. 39.0gr load was 1910 fps
RIGHT 3 TARGETS Shot with the Lee 6 cav GB 132gr Kurtz. Didn't like that 38gr charge much? The 39.0 gr load was 1887 fps.

...............Buckshot

[45 2.1]

I've got an email from 45 2.1 where in he "reveals" the true secret to his "high velocity" 6.5 Swede loads. The secret is he uses that Lovern bullet over 2400 loaded to around 1800 fps. He also does the usual other case prep and loading techniques we all use or soon learn to use. Perhaps therein lies the secret to learn from the "masters"; call 1800 fps from a 6.5 Swede with a cast bullet a "high velocity" load. It also helps too, as did all old good witchdoctors, to scare the hell out of those inquiring with things like; "It is not a recipe and experimenting without knowing what your doing can get you hurt. NOT for general dispensation at all." That's about all for now as I don't think 45 2.1 really wants me to tell all his "secrets" here or he couldn't have so much fun spinning the yarns he does. I see you didn't believe what Joe relayed, so i'll post it here: "Post whatever you like, you weren't told any secrets". You seem to believe you have a hold on me, but like usual, you are sadly mistaken. You got an outline of what to do, which you evidently didn't understand since you didn't have any success. Too bad...............................

You might wonder why I don't mention Starmetla? Joe and I are good friends but we have been over this numerous times on this forum and others. We have repeatidly asked him to show us 3 five shot groups or 1 10 shot group fired with his high velocity load out of his ARs, .223 or 6.5 and he has failed to do so giving numerous excuses why not. ( a simple "search" of this forum will result in numerous threads where this has been discussed) No need to take him seriously until he posts the actual data and sufficient test groups to demonstrate some consistency of accuracy.

One can shoot a good group simply due to random dispersion. The key to accuracy is not just one group but the ability to consistently reproduce that accuracy without excuses such as different lots of powder, primers, GCs, ambiant temperature, nodes, lubes, etc.

Larry Gibson

I see ole Larry is spinning his diatribe as usuall. Larry couldn't figure out the directions either, but Joe did so that puts him several notches above you Larry. All these attacks from you don't benefit this forum at all, just your ego. Like Joe said to you Larry, you really don't know, do you..........................

[Larry Gibson]

Buckshot's post is a very fine one and demonstrates the problem with RPM and cast bullets. As the velocity/RPM increase above a certain threshold the accuracy deteriorates. All of his targets were shot at 50 yards. Many like to test at 50 yards for various reasons and good results can be had at that range if the loads are kept at or under the RPM threshold. However, it is a proven fact that if the cast bullet is beyond the RPM threshold then the increase in group size will not be linear as range increases. In other words, a load that is over the RPM threshold that shoots groups of 1" at 50 yards will more than likely not shot a 2" group at 100 yards. This has been proven in numerous tests by myself and others here. Buckshot's very fine loads in the 1500 fps range will no doubt shoot linear dispersion to their practical range limitation.

45 2.1

I do not hold anything over you, I merely point out the discrepencies in your posts related to this matter. I do know of those are discrepensies because you continually contradict yourself. I've posted factual data and many groups fired at actual "high velocities" with cast bullets as you have been asked to do. You do not post anything except to refer to others claims (as you do in the above post). You have been asked repeatedly by many here for years to show us what you can and have done yet you fail to do so. Your "directions" are simply nothing that most of us have been doing for years. There is no "secret" to them even though you and a couple others seem to think there is. Nothing to figure out at all. Joe goes out and shoots one good group or "holds paper" (quoting him) with ahigh velocity load. Heck, I've shot numerous good groups at high velocity but it/they didn't mean anything because I couldn't do it consistently. All those "good" groups were simple the product of randon dispersion not some mythical magic potion that you claim. Now if only you and Joe could post 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups fired at 100 yards and post the targets here? If you could then perhaps most of us would give some credence to your "secrets". I would settle for 3 five shot groups or 1 ten shot group at 2400 fps from your 6.5. How about it?

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Buckshot's post is a very fine one and demonstrates the problem with RPM and cast bullets. As the velocity/RPM increase above a certain threshold the accuracy deteriorates. All of his targets were shot at 50 yards. Many like to test at 50 yards for various reasons and good results can be had at that range if the loads are kept at or under the RPM threshold. 50 yds. is pistol and rifle plinking level distance. It has nothing to do with high velocity results. However, it is a proven fact that if the cast bullet is beyond the RPM threshold then the increase in group size will not be linear as range increases. Heck Larry, we have several members shooting cast boolits at jacketed velocity with MOA groups. They do it at 100 yards, not 50 yd. It does make a difference how you launch a boolit. Clue: the heat isn't reaching the boolit the way they're doing it. Read Einsteins definition of insanity and apply it to what your doing. In other words, a load that is over the RPM threshold that shoots groups of 1" at 50 yards will more than likely not shot a 2" group at 100 yards.
Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Buckshot's post is a very fine one and demonstrates the problem with RPM and cast bullets. As the velocity/RPM increase above a certain threshold the accuracy deteriorates. All of his targets were shot at 50 yards. Many like to test at 50 yards for various reasons and good results can be had at that range if the loads are kept at or under the RPM threshold. However, it is a proven fact that if the cast bullet is beyond the RPM threshold then the increase in group size will not be linear as range increases. In other words, a load that is over the RPM threshold that shoots groups of 1" at 50 yards will more than likely not shot a 2" group at 100 yards. This has been proven in numerous tests by myself and others here. Buckshot's very fine loads in the 1500 fps range will no doubt shoot linear dispersion to their practical range limitation.

45 2.1

I do not hold anything over you, I merely point out the discrepencies in your posts related to this matter. I do know of those are discrepensies because you continually contradict yourself. I've posted factual data and many groups fired at actual "high velocities" with cast bullets as you have been asked to do. You do not post anything except to refer to others claims (as you do in the above post). You have been asked repeatedly by many here for years to show us what you can and have done yet you fail to do so. Your "directions" are simply nothing that most of us have been doing for years. There is no "secret" to them even though you and a couple others seem to think there is. Nothing to figure out at all. Joe goes out and shoots one good group or "holds paper" (quoting him) with ahigh velocity load. Heck, I've shot numerous good groups at high velocity but it/they didn't mean anything because I couldn't do it consistently. All those "good" groups were simple the product of randon dispersion not some mythical magic potion that you claim. Now if only you and Joe could post 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups fired at 100 yards and post the targets here? If you could then perhaps most of us would give some credence to your "secrets". I would settle for 3 five shot groups or 1 ten shot group at 2400 fps from your 6.5. How about it?

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Granted, it's harder to shoot good groups at HV. That's because everything that the reloader may have wrong in the load will be acentuated by the very high rpm's. As one gains experience in cast shooting, 45 2.1's techniques does make it possible to shoot HV with fast twist rifles.

Now now Larry...I know 45 2.1 gets you going, but don't direct that on me. As noted in some of my recent posts on this subject I'm having some problems I'm working on shooting HV tests. The one main problem was the bullet. I believe I have a hand on that. Ironically the bullet I got to really start shooting in my HV test is 45 2.1's that he cast himself!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not mine!!!! Boy, that's sure good for my inflated ego huh? The other problem is finding that technique sweet spot, which I've gotten a hand on somewhat and last is the problem of being able to shoot consisted groups such as you mentioned. I have not been telling you I'm shooting small groups when I've only shot one good group. By now you've noticed mention of the "secret 6.5 rifle". By the way it's not a 6.5x47 Lapua...thanks Scot The reason you're not seeing the groups from it are those mentioned above.

One last thing...if you want to see some exception HV groups shot at 50 yards...gee, just say so.

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

Guys, this is just a hobby to me. I don't get all serious about this stuff - beyond the safety aspects that is. I enjoy reading all of the posts. I am also a stubborn sort at times and like to play out options based on me being lazy and not wanting to start all over with alloy, etc..

To that end I loaded my boolits (which I finally weighed and they are 154 gr. with gc and lube) with two increased charges of the same W760. I did seat them out to engage the rifling and they still fit in the magazine, so that's good - again, this is intended for hunting if I get it going. Another thing that changed with the longer seating is that the base of the boolit is now just about flush with the bottom of the case neck, so that shouldn't hurt either.

So, we'll see how this goes. Longer seating and faster charge of medium slow powder. And no filler as the charge is about 90% of case.

Oh, and I will note that when I shot them last time - there was no yaw indicated at 50 yards but partial yaw did show at 100 yards.

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Granted, it's harder to shoot good groups at HV. That's because everything that the reloader may have wrong in the load will be acentuated by the very high rpm's. As one gains experience in cast shooting, 45 2.1's techniques does make it possible to shoot HV with fast twist rifles.

My point exactly. There is nothing "secret" about it. You can read about most of it in the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook and similar publications. They are not 45 2.1's "techniques", they are everyones. There is no "secret" knowledgeable only to a few "artists".

Now now Larry...I know 45 2.1 gets you going

I'd say I got his goat He doesn't "get me going" but I do like to offer newer cast bullet shooters the other and most prevailent point of view regarding high velocity loads, especially regarding the 6.5 Swede. New shooters should be given accurate information based on fact obtained by actual results. We've yet to see any actual results of accurate high velocity loads from 45 2.1. He has been asked many times in the past to produce them to back up his claims. He has not and usually defers to your, BaBore's or Bass's claims. I have asked him again to post some results, we shall see if he does.

.... but don't direct that on me. As noted in some of my recent posts on this subject I'm having some problems I'm working on shooting HV tests. The one main problem was the bullet. I believe I have a hand on that. Ironically the bullet I got to really start shooting in my HV test is 45 2.1's that he cast himself!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not mine!!!! Boy, that's sure good for my inflated ego huh? The other problem is finding that technique sweet spot, which I've gotten a hand on somewhat and last is the problem of being able to shoot consisted groups such as you mentioned. I have not been telling you I'm shooting small groups when I've only shot one good group. By now you've noticed mention of the "secret 6.5 rifle". By the way it's not a 6.5x47 Lapua...thanks Scot The reason you're not seeing the groups from it are those mentioned above.

I'll have to apologise if I gave that impression. I have noticed a more logical and scientific approach to your posting these days. You are posting all of your information, good and bad. That is the proper way to do it. The real problem is with the "sweet spot" concept is that it leads many down the wrong path concerning high velocity cast bullet loads. They can be working up a load at 2000 to 2600 fps using 3 or 5 shot groups and getting 3-5" groups. All of a sudden one test load gives a 1" group and they yell "the sweet spot". Then they go home and load more of that load and then find it too is really shooting 3-5" groups. They then (based on erronious advise gotten off this forum) go off testing primers, powders, lubes, GCs, etc. ad nauseum and never again find that 'sweet spot". Then they are told how to do it is a secret and if they can't do it then they just haven't "learned".

The truth of the situation is that the one good 1" groups was simply the product of random dispersion, i.e. the 3-5 shots just happened to land close together. Take a load that shoots 10 shots into 3". it is pretty much guarentee'd that 3 of those shots if not 5 of them will be pretty close to a 1" group. The "random" part is when you just happen to have the 3 or 5 shots that hit close to each other. Truth is the load is still a 3 MOA load. A true "sweet spot" load is one that can be duplicated redily and is reproduceable on demand. That's why I ask you for 5 consecutive five shot groups or 3 consecutive ten shot groups. When your loads give such good (I consider 2 moa to be "good" and true cast bullet high velocity) and consitent accuracy at high velocity then you can claim success. Caveat; I am talking about a cast bullet load to be used for general practice, target shooting and plinking. I have already, in previous discusions, mentioned the exception of high velocity hunting loads in which only a few shots will be fired before cleaning of the barrel is required.

One last thing...if you want to see some exception HV groups shot at 50 yards...gee, just say so.

You mised the point there Joe. I do not want to see any 50 yard groups from a CF rifle. They are misleading and give inconclusive results, especially with HV loads. Note waht O.S.O.K. says which is typical; " Oh, and I will note that when I shot them last time - there was no yaw indicated at 50 yards but partial yaw did show at 100 yards. " Testing at 100 yards is the minimal distance that will provide any realistic "group" information regarding high velocity cast bullet loads in CF rifles.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

I have asked him again to post some results, we shall see if he does.
Larry Gibson

Gee Larry, we're all still waiting to see definite proof that your lame RPM theory is true. No proof has been forthcoming on that for a long time and what you did post didn't prove anything either. Everytime someone posts a group disproving what you say, nothing is said by you but its a so called fluke. Nobody here plays by your rules except you.....................

[StarMetal]

Larry,

Whoa, hold on. In your opinion a "good" HV cast load is 2" moa, or less. Now we're not talking exceptional. We're talking good. Gosh, I've been wasting my time trying to shoot ragged holes. Geesh, no can't be, tell me it's not true...2 " moa...wow I threw lots of those targets away for fear I'd be laughed at. Boy, I got work to do now.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Guys, this is just a hobby to me. I don't get all serious about this stuff - beyond the safety aspects that is. I enjoy reading all of the posts. I am also a stubborn sort at times and like to play out options based on me being lazy and not wanting to start all over with alloy, etc..

To that end I loaded my boolits (which I finally weighed and they are 154 gr. with gc and lube) with two increased charges of the same W760. I did seat them out to engage the rifling and they still fit in the magazine, so that's good - again, this is intended for hunting if I get it going. Another thing that changed with the longer seating is that the base of the boolit is now just about flush with the bottom of the case neck, so that shouldn't hurt either.

So, we'll see how this goes. Longer seating and faster charge of medium slow powder. And no filler as the charge is about 90% of case.

Oh, and I will note that when I shot them last time - there was no yaw indicated at 50 yards but partial yaw did show at 100 yards.

You may have better sucess with your new loading, but I can tell you that's not it for the Swede. Remember I said launching the bullet and not from the muzzle?

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Whoa, hold on. In your opinion a "good" HV cast load is 2" moa, or less. Now we're not talking exceptional. We're talking good. Gosh, I've been wasting my time trying to shoot ragged holes. Geesh, no can't be, tell me it's not true...2 " moa...wow I threw lots of those targets away for fear I'd be laughed at. Boy, I got work to do now.

Joe

Yes Joe, you do need to go to work. "Good" is 2 MOA at high velocity for 5 consistent 5 shot groups or 3 consistent 10 shot groups not the occasional 3 or 5 shot group you sometimes come up with.

The cast bullet bench rest boys shoot "exceptional" consistent accuracy at high velocity but they us very slow twists (14 - 18" twists in .30 cals) which keeps the RPM level way below the RPM threshold at the higher velocities. I, unlike some here, do not pretend to shoot "expeptional" groups consistently at actual high velocity with the attendant RPM.

So go to work and show us 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups ata chronographed "high velocity".

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Gee Larry, we're all still waiting to see definite proof that your lame RPM theory is true. No proof has been forthcoming on that for a long time and what you did post didn't prove anything either. Everytime someone posts a group disproving what you say, nothing is said by you but its a so called fluke. Nobody here plays by your rules except you.....................

45 2.1

Your opinion ("what you did post didn't prove anything either") is noted but unfortuneately not the case.

BTW; "the rules" are not mine. They are the rules of ballistics and the laws of physics.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

Larry you know full well that 2" is not accurate unless that is all the rifle can do.
if it will do under an inch with j-words it will do under an inch with cast.
velocity,launch whatever. you are controlling the launch with flgc's too remember.
and yes a easy looong push is key to higher velocities as much as ignition is and the way the boolit engages the rifling [done with alloy manipulation,not just water dropping]
you have to work things over pretty damn hard to just get the three shot thing to work.
but after doing it a few times you kind of give up the work, and just have a rifle built that you know will do the job at the velocities you want .and go shoot it.

[StarMetal]

Larry you know full well that 2" is not accurate unless that is all the rifle can do.
if it will do under an inch with j-words it will do under an inch with cast.
velocity,launch whatever. you are controlling the launch with flgc's too remember.
and yes a easy looong push is key to higher velocities as much as ignition is and the way the boolit engages the rifling [done with alloy manipulation,not just water dropping]
you have to work things over pretty damn hard to just get the three shot thing to work.
but after doing it a few times you kind of give up the work, and just have a rifle built that you know will do the job at the velocities you want .and go shoot it.

runfiverun,

There you go, now we have someone that gets the "technique".

Joe

[303Guy]

I was testing paper patch loads at 50 maybe 40 yds. One load shot pretty well so I tried it at 190yds. Poooh! Yet they all hit the very large piece of cardboard straight on. (Just no-where near the POA! )

[Buckshot]

............Well I'm afraid 50 yards is about my limit of good target and sight definition, so you'll have to forgive me. Shooting farther then that (for me anyway) just doesn't do much for seeing what a load will do, unless I have a scope. Being 56 and having worn glasses since the 5th grade it's just beyond me. I own 116 rifles but only 5 of'em have scopes. Two 22RF's, a 223 varmint rifle, my M77 Ruger 30-06 and my new Savage M10FP 308. For better or worse, all the rest have what they were born with (oh a few have verniers and peeps), but other then that ..............

..........Buckshot

[Jim]

I picked up a 6.5X55 a coupla' months ago. When I saw this thread start up, I thought "Man, this is great! Perfect timing! I'm gonna find out something from these guys that have been at it for a long time that will help me get this thing wrung out."
I'm very dissapointed. All I've seen so far is "My dog's bigger than your dog" and I haven't learned anything except that there are people here that give me the impression that they "know something" that nobody else does. That ain't helping me a bit.
I'm goin' across the street and have a cold one.