Question on .30-06 and Unique...

[bruce drake]

SelmerFan,

I've used that same 16gr load with a Ideal 311291 for a good accurate load in my bolt action 30-06 in Highpower 200yard matches without a major issue with tumbling or wind drift. I used my standard 600 yard windage and elevation setting that I use with jacketed bullets and they just kept landing in the black.

Oh, and C.E. Harris, Mattern and several other more esteemed writers have give this load out as a good one for the last 70 years.

Our purple haired troll is just trying to get a rise out of us as we walk near his little bridge. You know, my kids had one of those little purple haired troll dolls for awhile. THankfully they outgrew the phase.

Bruce

[selmerfan]

I was out this morning shooting at the 200 yd range with my .30-06. I had a 20 mph crosswind and ended up with about 8 inches of wind drift at that range to center the quart oil bottles. I enjoy being able to watch the impact through even a 9x scope with the light recoil these loads produce. My .308 with 168 gr. match loads blow them up better, but watching the impact is more fun!

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

It's all good.

Everybody has their own goals as to what they wish to accomplish with their firearms. As long as they're doing it safely, learning things and having fun, you have to respect that.

When I was a young teenager, I really wanted in the worst way to "graduate" from my Rem .22 LR 513-T to high power shooting. Dad gave me a "C" stocked Remmy M1903A3 with micrometer sights. First day I spent shooting it I put around 150 rounds of St. Louis Arsenal vintage 1943 M2 AP ammo through it, and beat my shoulder black & blue. I sure wish he'd started me off with some lighter loads; those were pretty brutal.

One doesn't have to have the bleeding-edge maximum velocity load to have a great deal of fun, or to put rounds in little groups on a target 200 yards away.

[selmerfan]

Well said SWMC. I've even relearned to appreciate an afternoon spent with a .22LR and a brick of ammo. Great way to work on trigger control and sight picture. I'm having fun as long as I'm pulling the trigger, or teaching others to do so.

[RU shooter]

It's all good.

Everybody has their own goals as to what they wish to accomplish with their firearms. As long as they're doing it safely, learning things and having fun, you have to respect that.

When I was a young teenager, I really wanted in the worst way to "graduate" from my Rem .22 LR 513-T to high power shooting. Dad gave me a "C" stocked Remmy M1903A3 with micrometer sights. First day I spent shooting it I put around 150 rounds of St. Louis Arsenal vintage 1943 M2 AP ammo through it, and beat my shoulder black & blue. I sure wish he'd started me off with some lighter loads; those were pretty brutal.

One doesn't have to have the bleeding-edge maximum velocity load to have a great deal of fun, or to put rounds in little groups on a target 200 yards away.

This is exactly why I started casting ! I got tired of a sore shoulder at the end of a 58 rd match with various 30 cal rifles! I guess that classifies me as a wimp shooter then so be it! My 14 gr. Unique load with two different boolits (lee 155 and the RCBS 165 sil.) will shoot all 10s and X's for a 20 rd slow prone string If I hold hard. I'll take the results and a relaxing and ENJOYABLE 20 rds over having the crap beat outa me by a "real mans" jacketed load any day.

Tim

[Adk Mike]

I shot 50 rounds in my US Remington 1917 in 30-06 today at the local range at steel swingers out to 200 yards and 2 bonus rounds at 400 yards. The load a Lyman 311041 and 12 grains of Unique. Great load easy on the shoulder and the battle sights made up for any drop as long as they were set right. It was a lot of fun and a good day. Mike

[Newtire]

I found the 11.5 gr. Unique with a 150 grainer and 12.5 with the 170-180 grain boolits to be very accurate in my '06.

In the .30-30, the loads over 8-9 grains of Unique and a 120-150 grain wt. got worse accuracy as I went higher so settled on the lower charges.

For the faster loads, I have been having great luck with more powder using RX-7 in .30-06 and H-335 in .30-30 but then the cost goes up.

I keep a couple of cigar boxes full of the lighter loads for when the kids come down and they have a ball.

[qajaq59]

I used to use loads of Unique in my 30-30s because I wanted to practice shooting while standing, and I knew I was going to burn up at least a 100 rounds of 30-30 a week doing it. Using 7 grains of Unique behind a cast bullet meant that I could shoot for 10 weeks with a single pound of powder. That is quite a savings over say IMR 3031 or some of the others. Plus there is virtual no recoil, so I didn't have to worry about fatigue or developing a flinch. I found it better then dry firing which bored me to death.

[pmeisel]

One other advantage of pistol powders in rifles....

I am mainly a revolver shooter. I always have Unique, 2400, and 4227 on hand. Being able to shoot one or two of these in my 7.62x39, or the 30/30 I am shopping for, keeps me from stocking more powder.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Go ahead and waste away, what ever makes you happy.

even with cast, I try and get them to go as fast as they can to get the most energy I can produce without leading.

I agree with Lead Fred. You're going to need much more energy to kill those paper targets cleanly. I cringe when I hear people talking about using such weenie loads to hunt paper. You should be ashamed at all the wounded targets you have undoubtedly let wander off to die a lingering death.
I made the mistake of loading my 8mm Mauser (Yogo 24/47) with a Lee 175 gr. boolit on top of a wimpy 19 gr. of 2400. Boolits are loafing out at 1650, maybe even 1700 fps. This load let me down terribly at our last CMP military bolt gun match. In slow fire prone it shot a measly 98-5X. I am sure the two 9's were not me, couldn't have been. Had to be the poor load choice.
Give me a break. Not all worthwile shooting is measured in KE.

[dsmjon]

I tried some 'weenie' loads in the 30/30 about a month ago. I LOVE Unique, and having acquired +/- 10lbs of it, I try to use it wherever possible.

So I took some advise, loaded 13(?)gr. Unique under a 135gr. cast slug. (question mark indicates my forgetfullness right now, I have it written downstairs...)

Went to the range (indoor 100yds), set the target up at 50yards, as I didn't want to inhumanely injure the paper knowing that I'd be shooting a light load...

Began with my 'standard' load, straight out of the book, 31gr of IMR 4895 under same bullet. Groups mediocre @ 50yards, I'm not worried about de-winging a fly in flight here...

Swapped to the Unique loads, aiming for the same group of holes I just put through the poor defenseless paper.. Only to see new holes appearing about 8" low and to the left. Shot the remaining 20 Unique loads, and they went all over the target, all b/w about 8-10" off of my hold spot.

I really felt like a golfball out of a slingshot! I'm not out to debunk what anyone here is posting, I'm just curious about my results. I will be trying various loads with the Unique, as I said, I love the powder and have a lot more of it to burn up than anything else at my disposal right now. BUT, had I tried these shots at this indoor range at the long end (100yds), I know good and well the boolits would either be bouncing off the rafters or smacking the floor before hitting paper.

Any ideas? .308" cast boolit, Marlin 336 (gold trigger model) microgroove 30/30. I have been recommended to step up to a .310" dia boolit, as these particular Marlins run a little on the large side (I.D.).

[GrizzLeeBear]

dsmjon, Unique is a great powder for cast boolit loads, but it is NOT one to try and get maximum velocity with. I don't think your problem is the powder itself, but your load maybe.
1st, are they gas checked boolits? My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (you should have one of these, by the way, if you want to continue shooting cast boolits) doesn't list a boolit of that wieght in 30-30, but shows a 115 gr. boolit with a max. load of 11.4 gr. of Unique for 1913 fps and 36,400 C.U.P. Also lists 151 gr. boolit with a max. load of 11.0 gr. of Unique for 1691 fps and 37,300 C.U.P. I think your load is a bit too hot. If your boolits are gas checked, try loading 5 each at 9, 10 and 11 grains and see which one groups best. This should get you 1500 - 1600 fps.
Slug your barrel so you know exactly what the dia. is. There are a bunch of threads here describing several good ways to do it. Even if you don't slug it, the .308 boolits were very likely undersized. The .310 boolits would probably be better.
I am assuming your "straight out of the book" load was a jacketed bullet load. 31 gr. of 4895 should be 2100+ fps with that boolit. Which is doable with a cast boolit IF you have a boolit that fits the throat and fills the bore properly with a good lube. Try the .310 sized boolits with 25 gr. of 4895 and work your way up to 31 gr. in 1 gr. increments. I'm guessing that around 29 - 30 gr. the groups will start opening up.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

dsmjon,
I'd say your first step would be to slug your barrel in order to find out what you're really dealing with.

13 grains of Unique with a 135gr boolit in a 30/30 is a couple of grains higher than my old books go; in other words, you're pushing things a bit too much, and may be getting pretty high chamber pressure spikes. I'd start out closer to 7.5gr-8gr and work up slowly; about 0.4 grains per step.

Your 4895 loads seem a bit on the high end, but at least you should still be in reasonable chamber pressure range. Try dropping it down to about 28 grains and see how it shoots there.

[eta]
GrizzLeeBear, we cross-posted. Nice that we independently came up pretty closely on what dsmjon's approach should be.

I suggested 7.5gr-8gr starting load for Unique, because my Lyman #45 shows 7.5gr starting for both 120gr and 150gr cast. Going up by 0.4gr from 8gr is a 5% increase for that initial step; there's less of a chance of skipping over that "sweet spot".

For IMR 4895 I only have j-word load data. 110gr bullets start at 31gr and end at 34gr. 150gr bullets start at 28gr and end at 31gr. So by extrapolation (dicey at best, deadly at worst) 31gr IMR 4895 with a 135gr bullet is about midrange. With a lead boolit, it's really too much.

Going by Hodgdon's 60% rule (H4895 ONLY can be loaded as low as 60% of max), he could start with as little as 20gr and work up from there. An 80% max load (est. 33gr.) would be 26.4 gr.

[qajaq59]

For what it's worth......I was getting shotgun patterns with Unique and cast, such as you have described. Two things changed it completely. I slugged the barrel and then sized them properly and I started belling the cases. The difference was really significant. I also worked up the load a bit at a time until I found the sweet spot, which by the way, was no where near the max.

[dsmjon]

I have slugged the barrel, rekon I will do it again. Will also look for the Lyman Cast book, it's been suggested before, sounds like it must be time, LOL.

[dsmjon]

Grizz- Is there a specific (or preferred) edition of the Lyman Cast Handbook to look for?

[GrizzLeeBear]

Third edition is the latest. Came out about 1980 and hasn't been revised since, but is still being printed.

[dsmjon]

Well, for whatever the hell I did the 1st time I slugged the barrel it wasn't right. I was indeed lobbing .308" boolits down a .308" bore. I've got about 40 or so .310" JSP that I'll try out with the Unique this weekend. The cannalure is short (fairly close to the tail), looks like probably for a 303Brit. Any forseeable problems, so long as the COAL is ok?

[Rocky Raab]

I have a *.pdf file of an original load brochure published in (I believe) 1935, which says that Unique was created for low-power loads in RIFLES. Here's an excerpt from the first page...

Hercules UNIQUE was
first manufactured by the Laflin & Rand
Powder Company about the year 1898, or
shortly thereafter, and has been continuously
on the American market ever since.
It has been known generally to reloaders as
a stable and dependable powder for lowpower
or gallery loads for all caliber rifles.

There are pages of load data, from 22 Hornet through 8mm Mauser - including many for the .30-06.

So the question posed above really OUGHT to be "Why are we using a rifle powder in handguns and shotguns?"

[GrizzLeeBear]

Well, for whatever the hell I did the 1st time I slugged the barrel it wasn't right. I was indeed lobbing .308" boolits down a .308" bore. I've got about 40 or so .310" JSP that I'll try out with the Unique this weekend. The cannalure is short (fairly close to the tail), looks like probably for a 303Brit. Any forseeable problems, so long as the COAL is ok?

If you are shooting them in a lever action, YES THAT IS A PROBLEM! Do not shoot "pointy" bullets in a lever action. Use flat nosed bullets only, remember in a tube magazine the nose of each round rests against the primer of the round ahead of it. Primers do not react well (in the magazine) to being banged against pointy things under recoil. All of the bullet companies make FP jacketed bullets for the 30-30.
With jacketed, stay with .308 bullets. For cast size your boolits .309 - .310.
Also, Unique may work for plinking/small game loads with light jacketed bullets, but I would not try to make deer hunting loads/velocities with it, especially with heavier jacketed bullets. Use the 4895 for full power loads (jacketed or cast) and use the Unique for light to medium cast loads.