OK guys tell me if this sounds stupid

[Bret4207]

Do as you wish. An opinion call was asked for and answered. In the end it's up to the OP and what he wants to do.

This isn't a "I'm right and you're wrong" question Joe, so don;t try to turn it into one please.

[StarMetal]

Do as you wish. An opinion call was asked for and answered. In the end it's up to the OP and what he wants to do.

This isn't a "I'm right and you're wrong" question Joe, so don;t try to turn it into one please.

Bret, I'm not. There's a lot of us that grew up never experimenting to find out what's written in the holy Grail is not all true. I did, I experimented safely all my life. Let give you another person that experiments and maybe his test will enlighten you. Jumptrap wanted to blow up an M44 Mosin Nagent. After numerous supposedly dangerous loads with rifle powder he asked me what to do. Now before I tell you what I told him, Jump concluded that you could literally scoop a 7.62x54 case full of powder and push the bullet in it and not blow up the rifle. Only on some occasions was the bolt difficult to open. He said amazing given that the loading manuals have strict data to adhere too. Now, I told him load with Bullseyes, which he did. Results: slightly swelled chamber and bolt too hard to open. He screwed the barrel off (which he mailed to me) and the bolt worked. Nothing was hurt on the rifle and even more amazing to me is the brass didn't let go. I'm sure you might remember when he did this. Now does this mean you can neglect the loading manuals? NO It just goes to show you there is a pretty good safety margin built into them, but like other things in life they can be manipulated to get negative results. Over sized bullets are in this area. To tell you the truth (and don't any of you go and do this) If, if, you could even get the next caliber size up to chamber, it probably would blow the rifle. Ackney done this too.

I wouldn't tell the poster to load down and work up some with the slightly oversized bullets if it was dangerous. I sure as heck wouldn't tell him under any circumstances to use a case full of Bullseyes either.

Toss you one more. You can get away shooting the fatter later 8mm bullets in the earlier .318 Mausers. That one I don't suggest only because of the age of those rifles.

Joe

[felix]

The SEE condition is the ONE to fear 100 percent, and the tight neck condition as 98 percenter. ... felix

[briang]

The SEE condition is the ONE to fear 100 percent, and the tight neck condition as 98 percenter. ... felix

What does "SEE condition" mean?

[felix]

Means the powder goes bananas and tries to ACTUALLY burn all at once from any CAUSE. Usually, a forerunner is the "click-bang" syndrome. Another is lots more recoil than expected. If all the remaining powder is affected, and that powder amount is substantial, the gun literally becomes a BOMB. SEE = Seconday Explosion Effect. ... felix

[briang]

OK, thanks.

[Marlin Hunter]

Jeez, Louise!

SovBloc ammo can run as fat as .313, and M-N barrels as tight as .308. If there were a major problem, you might think someone would have noticed. That's an extreme, but a couple of thous either way makes very little difference in sloppy military chambers.

If you looked at the history of communist soldiers (Russia, Vietnam, N. Korea, China, Africa, etc), you would notice that the rifle didn't have to last very long since the soldier didn't last very long either.

[StarMetal]

Means the powder goes bananas and tries to ACTUALLY burn all at once from any CAUSE. Usually, a forerunner is the "click-bang" syndrome. Another is lots more recoil than expected. If all the remaining powder is affected, and that powder amount is substantial, the gun literally becomes a BOMB. SEE = Seconday Explosion Effect. ... felix

Felix,

In a lengthy conversation one time with a Hodgdon powder tech we discussed SEE. In their opinion it doesn't exist in hand held firearms. He said the term originated from the Navy as it was an occurrence that happen with Naval cannons. He explained it as a second explosion of powder outside and in front of the barrel. He said don't give him the usual story of 2.7 grains of Bullsyes with a 148 grain hollow base wadcutter in a 38 Special blowing the revolver up. Said it just isn't going to happen and would guarantee that it was a multiple load of powder.

Don't get me wrong, I don't know what to think about it. I've heard the stories too and also the ones that it's been duplicated in the labs, but then I've heard stories that the lab stories weren't true. Would be nice if some professional outfit would finally get to the bottom of it. Here's what I do think. In this day and age with all of the technology there is no reason why this supposedly event could not be recreated. I certainly do not think it's as mystifying as say UFO's, etc...

Joe

[BerdanIII]

Burn them up in the .303 and the 7.7mm; you'd be amazed at the length of bullet engraved by the rifling in a .303. I've pulled bullets on three spam cans of Albanian 7.62x54mmR; the bullets are either an out-of-round 0.310" or an out-of-round 0.311". Remington's 180-gr. ".303" bullets are 0.310" diameter, probably to keep people out of trouble in case they screw up and stuff them in a .30-'06.

There will be considerable resistance to sizing through a 0.309" Lee die due to the steel core. I did about a dozen and had a devil of a time using a Rockchucker. RCBS case lube or Imperial sizing wax; no difference in effort.

There was an article in The Fouling Shot either earlier this year or late last year in which the author gave the groove diameters of alleged 0.308" bores from various rifles. Most were over 0.308" and some were at 0.310". As long as you reduce the load and make sure that the chamber neck is large enough to handle the bullet, there shouldn't be a problem.

[MtGun44]

Most likely cause of the 2.7gr BE 147 WC .38 Spl blowups is DOUBLE BOOLIT, not double
powder. It will fit if you are seating them a tad long and esp wit HBWCs. I have permission
to test this combo in Hodgdon's pressure bbl, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

It isn't only the dbl boolit wt that does it, it is the DRAMATIC reduction in powder chamber
volume, even compression of the BE is likely.

Bill

[Dale53]

There is a simple check to determine if those bullets are safe to fire in a .308 bore. Take a fired case and see if the bullet will enter the neck to seating depth (just use your fingers). If the bullets won't, then they are too big to safely use. This is the danger area as has been stated. If the bullet is wedged between the case neck and the chamber pressures can sky rocket resulting in rifle damage and maybe worse.

Sizing jacketed bullets in a Lee die is basically a bad idea. The lead core will size and stay there. The jacket, being guilding metal, will spring back. You end up with a loose jacket. Accuracy goes to pot and maybe you end up with leaving a jacket in the bore (if it is a soft nose). BAD JOOJOO!

Just swap the bullets for correct size bullets and stay "out of the swamp".

Dale53

[felix]

Powder burning outside of the barrel is not a SEE condition, Joe. That Navy scenario deals with not enough oxygen being included (molecule wise) within the completed powder formula during its manufacture. I have a combo that will produce a SEE, and offered to deliver the gun and the same ammo components to a gun lab. No takers after the condition was explained in detail. Prolly their reason was that the renumeration I required to repair the gun should it have to be replaced. ... felix

[Dale53]

Frankly, the 2.7 Bullseye "story" isn't a story. It was fully documented in the American Rifleman. H.P. White was commissioned by the N.R.A. to discover the reason for all of the blownup .38 Special revolvers during the height of the PPC era.

It was determined to be a combination of factors:
1 - A double charge of Bullseye

PLUS

2 - Deep seating of the bullet caused by failure to clean the bullet lube
from the bullet seating die (too many were more interested in their
"rounds per hour" reloading speed than making safe, accurate rounds).

2.7 grs of Bullseye with a hollow base wadcutter OR a solid base wadcutter produces a very mild pressure (about 9000 psi). A double charge of Bullseye with the same bullet produces about 30,000 psi (this, alone, will not blow up an S&W K-.38 nor a Colt Python). However, a double charge of Bullseye plus deep seating of the bullet (remember, we were dealing with near flush seated wadcutters that severely reduced case capacity) by just 1/16th of an inch raised pressures to 67,000 psi that WOULD cause catastrophic failure of many, many revolvers.

H.P. White could easily (and did) reproduce those results after they determined how they occurred. They are NOT urban myth and were thoroughly documented in the American Rifleman.

NOTE:
A contributing factor (that I don't believe was covered in the article) is that we had a large number of new shooters and new reloaders that jumped on the PPC bandwagon as it was a very popular sport ALL OF A SUDDEN. At that same time, progressive presses became more popular. You had this sudden influx of new shooters, without much, if any, reloading experience turned loose with a progressive press without ANY background. It was a prescription for failure to those who didn't want to take the time to learn and/or who lacked mechanical skills.

When Cowboy Shooting burst upon the scene, the same thing happened. New shooters, with MUCH more available income jumping on new progressive presses with little or no experience reloading who, very often, do NOT pay attention, using very light loads of fast burning powder that can easily be double charged. The difference is, the .38 Special "K" frames could handle an occasional double charge. The thin chambers and popularity of .45 Colt Single Action Army and some clones with maybe marginal strength and you have, AGAIN, the same prescription for failure.

For those that "pay attention" and do their home work, the risk of reloading is minimal. For those that do not (just look at all of the drunk drivers, as an example) the risk is MUCH greater.

I would like to apologize for getting off topic here - however, I could NOT just "let this one go". There is too much erroneous material regarding safety and had to chime in here.

Dale53

[StarMetal]

Powder burning outside of the barrel is not a SEE condition, Joe. That Navy scenario deals with not enough oxygen being included (molecule wise) within the completed powder formula during its manufacture. I have a combo that will produce a SEE, and offered to deliver the gun and the same ammo components to a gun lab. No takers after the condition was explained in detail. Prolly their reason was that the renumeration I required to repair the gun should it have to be replaced. ... felix

Felix,

No argument from me, call Hodgdon bring it up with their powder techs.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Frankly, the 2.7 Bullseye "story" isn't a story. It was fully documented in the American Rifleman. H.P. White was commissioned by the N.R.A. to discover the reason for all of the blownup .38 Special revolvers during the height of the PPC era.

It was determined to be a combination of factors:
1 - A double charge of Bullseye

PLUS

2 - Deep seating of the bullet caused by failure to clean the bullet lube
from the bullet seating die (too many were more interested in their
"rounds per hour" reloading speed than making safe, accurate rounds).

2.7 grs of Bullseye with a hollow base wadcutter OR a solid base wadcutter produces a very mild pressure (about 9000 psi). A double charge of Bullseye with the same bullet produces about 30,000 psi (this, alone, will not blow up an S&W K-.38 nor a Colt Python). However, a double charge of Bullseye plus deep seating of the bullet (remember, we were dealing with near flush seated wadcutters that severely reduced case capacity) by just 1/16th of an inch raised pressures to 67,000 psi that WOULD cause catastrophic failure of many, many revolvers.

H.P. White could easily (and did) reproduce those results after they determined how they occurred. They are NOT urban myth and were thoroughly documented in the American Rifleman.

NOTE:
A contributing factor (that I don't believe was covered in the article) is that we had a large number of new shooters and new reloaders that jumped on the PPC bandwagon as it was a very popular sport ALL OF A SUDDEN. At that same time, progressive presses became more popular. You had this sudden influx of new shooters, without much, if any, reloading experience turned loose with a progressive press without ANY background. It was a prescription for failure to those who didn't want to take the time to learn and/or who lacked mechanical skills.

When Cowboy Shooting burst upon the scene, the same thing happened. New shooters, with MUCH more available income jumping on new progressive presses with little or no experience reloading who, very often, do NOT pay attention, using very light loads of fast burning powder that can easily be double charged. The difference is, the .38 Special "K" frames could handle an occasional double charge. The thin chambers and popularity of .45 Colt Single Action Army and some clones with maybe marginal strength and you have, AGAIN, the same prescription for failure.

For those that "pay attention" and do their home work, the risk of reloading is minimal. For those that do not (just look at all of the drunk drivers, as an example) the risk is MUCH greater.

I would like to apologize for getting off topic here - however, I could NOT just "let this one go". There is too much erroneous material regarding safety and had to chime in here.

Dale53

BINGO!!!!

Joe

[felix]

Vice versa, Joe. They will call me should they want my input. ... felix