Undersize cherry

[44man]

I didn't get it quite right and my boolits are a little too small. Putting the cherry back in and turning by hand didn't do anything so I tried something else. I put the mould in the freezer for a few hours. Then I heated the cherry a little and with a chuck on it for a handle, I turned it in the cold mould.
It worked and the boolit is where I want it. I have to shoot some yet and will let you know how it did.
For any of you that are making your own, it is a lot easier then starting all over.

[Buckshot]

.............So how much larger did the slug cast then previously?

.....................Buckshot

[44man]

Buckshot, I gained .002". I went down and shot them all up today. I made the gas check portion tight and have to tap them on. I then run them only deep enough in the sizer to crimp the check. I then hand lube with felix. I found I could turn the checks so I annealed a bunch to compare. These were seated tight.
Now the strange thing; all the groups with the annealed checks were double the size of the hard ones. No, I'm not going to tell you why! WHY? BECAUSE I AM BAFFLED AND DON'T KNOW.
I shot Creedmore from the side of my leg at 50 yd's with my BFR 45-70 revolver. Here is one of the groups with the hard check. Five shots in 7/8"

[StarMetal]

44man,

Since you gained .002 I'll call ya 44.002man.... Hey there's a difference when I should the same load with some of my rifles and the only change is my aluminum gascheck as compared to the Hornady check. The groups size pretty much stays the same, but they impact at a different location on the target. Now we're not talking about a whole hell of alot of difference in weight between the two checks either. Not enough to move impact as much as it is.

You need to recover some bullets out of your backstop that were with the annealed checks and examine them. See if there is any indication of the check taking a while to settle in the rifling or perhaps if the bullet is turning inside the check. Also check to see if the gas pressure cupped the bottom of the check alot.

Joe

[44man]

Joe, I can't recover any because I shoot into a 45 degree steel plate and they explode. The ground is littered with checks and tiny pieces of lead.
I have used annealed checks on the .44 with WW metal and they grouped tighter. With hard lead there was no change. That is why it is strange with this gun. The hard checks can be moved but not the annealed ones, which are very tight. I can't pry them off without bending them up. No way they can cup or move.
Just one of those strange things.

[Dale53]

I can not help you with an explanation. I can congratulate you for fine shooting and good equipment (including loads).

Good work!

Dale53

[Bret4207]

Just a thought, a non-anealed check will spring back more after sizing than an anealed check which wasn't work hardend during the manufacturing process. This will give you a slightly, and apparently significant, difference in base diameter.

[Bass Ackward]

Now the strange thing; all the groups with the annealed checks were double the size of the hard ones. No, I'm not going to tell you why! WHY? BECAUSE I AM BAFFLED AND DON'T KNOW. Here is one of the groups with the hard check. Five shots in 7/8"

44man,

I know why.

[44man]

Bass, please tell me! It works in some of my guns, but not with this boolit.

[stocker]

Bass: You Devil, you.

Trying to figure this one myself without having encountered it I came with three guesses

1. The gas check is crimping on the shank before it is bottomed on the bullet base.
2. The anneled check is either losing metal in the seating process or is being reduced slightly by case tension.
3. The softer check is being dragged of the bullet as it goes down the bore


Now, please let us in on the real story.

[Bass Ackward]

Ok. My guess.

Handgun bullet transition is harder on a check than a controlled smooth entry in a rifle throat. The check / base obturates many .000 and swells in the chamber and then sized down as it enters the throat. Obturates many .000 again as the check breaks the cylinder while the nose is being held up working into shape in the forcing cone which is why it is a forcing cone and not an alignment cone. Then it is sized down again by the cone and then the bore.

Now we all know the tale about the many thousands of rounds through the 44 yada, yada, yada. It probably has nicely polished leades in both the chambers and the forcing cone. Alignment is probably worn to perfection. The angle on the end of the lands is probably gentle and slight tapering up to full rifling height. So there is nothing to catch. Under this ideal condition a softer check adhearing to the bullet may perform .... more accurately unless bullet hardness is sufficient to handle the rotational forces where as both would perform equally well.

My guess is that this ain't .... quite .... so in the BFR yet. The harder check stands up better than a softie for some reason. I mean you can tell from his groups that the gun needs work.


Definition of Filler. Everything after OK until I ended this post.

[StarMetal]

Bass,

You said you knew why. Then you said this at the end of your post: My guess is that this ain't .... quite .... so in the BFR yet. The harder check stands up better than a softie for some reason. I mean you can tell from his groups that the gun needs work.

That's basically saying you don't know and what you said you knew, was just a guess.

About the checks not being seated fully. Come on, 44man isn't any rookie, sitting checks fully is elementary. I you just place a check on your bullet base and size/lube it, you're a beginner. When you become experienced you sit the check fully before any sizing is done. So I could bet my bank that 44man seats his checks fully before sizing.

Joe

[stocker]

Starmetal : read post number 3 in this thread and tell me why any one would assume the check is being fully and firmly seated.

[StarMetal]

I see you're point, but what I'm trying to tell you is 44man is a pretty knowledgeable reloader and he does some damn good shooting. That comes from experience. That's why I can assure you he seats them fully. Wait till he posts and see what he says.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

That's basically saying you don't know and what you said you knew, was just a guess.

Joe

Joe,

Hot dang. Your such a smart guy Joe. So I lied. Tell me anyone who can say they really know what can't be proved? But it had 44 going.

And now you.

[44man]

Yup, seated fully and I inspect every one before crimping and after.
I would have expected the hard ones to give me trouble because due to a little spring back, I can move them a little. I can't move an annealed check at all.
I use a pretty hard alloy of WW's, tin and antimony, water dropped.
I ran out of boolits so I can't measure any until I cast some more. I don't expect any problem there because my boolits are the same size as my throats or over, .4595"-.460" depending where I measure the boolit.
The BFR bores are dead smooth, no tight spots and never lead. I shot jacketed when it was new and never found much fouling from them either.

[stocker]

Starmetal: Gotcha (meaning I understand). The only trouble with the internet discussions is that if every step isn't detailed the second guessing starts. Looking at the kind of toys 44man likes to play with I would have bet he was thorough. I was just speculating.

I would be interested in seeing what base measurement 44man gets on his gas check seating them the way he described as compared to bringing them firmly down onto the stop. Provided die diameter isn't too small at the bottom I wonder if the check might fill out a bit at its base.

[Bass Ackward]

Well .... in the end, sometimes we never know why. But my checks for handguns are never annealled. They need to do a lot more work in a handgun for me. In fact, just the opposite as I stated above. I like hard checks to remove any possible leading.

A hard check for me does spring back. I want it to. So does a hard bullet! That means the sharpest edge and the most scraping contact force. I could care less if it rotates a little because the rifling will grip it enough. Rotation forces on a wheelgun bullet (GC model) isn't as severe as a rifle in most cases and the bullets can usually be hardened enough to support the function of a lose check. Hardening the bullet also supports the base from obturation that can distort the check too.


44.

No offense. But just because the gun shoots and doesn't lead, or that a patch runs smoothly, or any other standard test we throw at it, doesn't mean that there isn't something somewhere. Try coming off the rock and shoot some soft (12 BHN) for awhile. Slow your velocity down. Just 50 and blow'em down range for fun. Forget paper for a day. See what that shows you .... if anything.

Hard bullets spring back too! And good lube can hide a lot of sins. I am not belittling the gun here either. In fact, I usually see that a gun needs to start off with hard bullets and then can get softer as it gets rounds down through it amd bore conditions become more friendly. Might take several thousand, but things will eventually shake out. And why there is no clear consensous on bullet hardness.

This is a question (test) that isn't worth asking for 99% of other people. Either ask or accept the results. Depends if you want (need) to satisfy your own curiosity.

[StarMetal]

stocker,

No problem senior.

bass,

even if checks are annealed I think they are still harder then hard bullet alloys.

I got rid of my gascheck bullet moulds for revolver, found for my uses of said guns that I don't need them and they add alot more expense to the reloads.

Joe

[Dale53]

StarMetal;
>>>I got rid of my gascheck bullet moulds for revolver, found for my uses of said guns that I don't need them and they add alot more expense to the reloads.<<<

I "mostly" agree with you here. My "day to day" loads are plain based bullets. However, I have a strong suspicion that gas checked bullets are easier to get good results with (alloy not quite right, lube quality suspect, etc). When Frank Siefer and I "designed" the Lee C310- .430 bullet, we had a time frame - Frank was on his way to Alaska to bear hunt and we wanted to use it. So, we added a gas check to speed the process (figured with would have faster results without a lot of experimenting). Lee put the bullet in production after the results started coming in. It is one fine gaime bullet that shoots better than any .44 mag bullet we have tried.

All of that said, I mostly use plain base bullets because of convenience (less work), and less expense with accuracy results with plain base that is "just fine, thank you ".

So, i keep the Lee C310 for hunting (can use a softer alloy with a gas check without leading) and do all of my practice with plain base.

It is interesting with my new toy, the TC Carbine (SSK 22" barrel in .32 H&R Magnum), my test loads went as fast as 1700 fps (plain base .314x120 group buy bullet) without a trace of leading. Of course, the accuracy results are not yet in. I am still in the "early days" of the process. Since I am holding down the pressures for revolver use, I will probably settle for about 1500 fps in the Carbine (and 1100 fps in the 6" revolver).

Dale53