Heavy Bullets in .45 Auto Rim

[GLL]

Dale & Chargar:

I will join you two since I am almost 70 and also shoot a 625-2 from 1988. It’s only diet is 45AutoRim. I use the 454423 bullets from the LEE 6-cavity Group Buy I ran a few years ago. These were a slightly modified design by 45 2.1.



Chargar- Your comment about the Eddie Bauer goose down bag caught my eye. I still use both of mine that I bought about 1969 back when the company still made outstanding outdoor products for expedition use ! I used one last winter near you up above McKittrick Canyon and Guadalupe Peak.

Jerry

[Char-Gar]

I bought the heaviest Eddie Bauer goose down bag that was made back in 1962. I used it until 1991 when I gave it away, my camping days being over. It was very expensive, even in 1962 dollars but proved to be very cheap in the long run, because of the service it gave.

I feel the same way about binoculars. After having several cheap pair, I bought a pair of Zeiss in 1982. It is the last pair I will ever need.

There are some things that cost more up front, but prove to be cheap decades latter when several lesser products have bitten the dust.

[Piedmont]

Actually, I believe those 1937 guns are not Model 1937s. They are model 1917s, Brazillian contract. It is just a 1917 that S&W stamped the Brazillian crest on the side of and sent off in large batches to Brazil.

[Char-Gar]

Piedmont.. Strickly speaking they are variants of the commercial Pre-War 45 Hand Ejectors (2nd. Model). They were off the shelf commercial pistols with a high polish blue. The true 1917 was a WWI US Goverment contract pistol. The later commercial 45 Hand Ejectors had a different internal safety device. They were just evolutions of the 1917 but are not 1917s.

If you look at the Brazilian crest on the right side of the frame, you will also see the date 1937 in the crest. This is the year the Brizilian navy adopted the pistol. It is for this reason collectors and others refer to it as the 1937 model. The Brazilian designation was Modelo 1937.

[Catshooter]

I have a '17 hybred (to be polite). Adjustable N frame sight, six and a half inch .455 barrel, a 45 ACP/AR cylinder from some other '17. Throats are .455/.456. I load a 454424 from 50/50 sized .457 over HS-6. Out of this long barrel I get right about 850 feet. Starline AR brass.

Don't want to go higher out of respect of the pieces age. The gun loves the load and a 265 grain 45 caliber boolit at that speed is nothing to trifle with. Case heads show zero expansion and of course just fall out of the chambers.

Like Chargr I like the .45 and have a small selection. Don't own any magnums anymore, don't see the need. I can shoot ok, but I can't even begin to utilize the trajectory that magnum speeds provide. I ani't nowhere near Elmer.

I have a Brazilian. It has seen very tough times. You know the Hollywood trick of snapping the cylinder open? Somebody did the reverse, snapping the cylinder shut. A lot. Then when he went to bed each night he'd toss it across the room into the steel 55 gal drum he stored all his Smiths in. Never seen a barrel with a dent on the outside that you can see from the inside. You could open the cylinder without bothering with the thumb latch. *sigh* Some peoples children.

Worked her over for a while and now it's actually safe to shoot. Does about three inches at 15 yards. I still like it. It's a .45, isn't it? How can you not love it?




Cat

[Piedmont]

Piedmont.. Strickly speaking they are variants of the commercial Pre-War 45 Hand Ejectors (2nd. Model). They were off the shelf commercial pistols with a high polish blue. The true 1917 was a WWI US Goverment contract pistol. The later commercial 45 Hand Ejectors had a different internal safety device. They were just evolutions of the 1917 but are not 1917s.

If you look at the Brazilian crest on the right side of the frame, you will also see the date 1937 in the crest. This is the year the Brizilian navy adopted the pistol. It is for this reason collectors and others refer to it as the 1937 model. The Brazilian designation was Modelo 1937.

The reason I posted as I did is because I checked out Supica and Nahas' Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson from the local library and read much of it. That was a while back but I was particularly interested in this issue because I own one of those Brazillian revolvers. I don't believe I have mislead anyone on the opinion of those two authors. Your opinion may differ but these guys wrote the book.

If any of you out there own the above book maybe you can peek at the pertinent section and let us know if my memory is faulty with regards to this.

BTW I don't think they are just 2nd model hand ejectors because they are of military configuration (note the lanyard loop).

[StrawHat]

It is good to see this thread revived! Not sure about the bickering going on but the reloading info is nice.

For those of you who haven't seen this, here is an good article about the Lyman 454423, written by a forum member.

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

It was this article that got me looking for a mold for my 25-2. I have one of the 6 cavity GB molds from the run honchoed by GLL. SInce I stiffened up the alloy, it has been a much better performer.

[excess650]

While I have owned a couple of older S&Ws in 45AR/45ACP, the only one I currently have is a 625-3 4". I had Veral Smith cut me a 250WFN for it and it was VERY accurate over 9.5gr Hercules Blue Dot. It shot high with the rear sight all the way down, but that would have been fixable with a taller front sight. My load was worked up with Speer #11 data as a basis. They loaded 9.0gr under a 250gr SWC and pressure was under 17K cup. I started lower and worked up and accuracy really came in as velocity went up.

S&Ws of that time period may well have been some of their better pieces. The most accurate revolver I've ever shot is my 5" 610 10mm. I also have a M16 in 32 mag, and one of the M36 with full lug barrel and adjustable sights. My 2-1/2" M19 of that time period now has a 4" and gets carried more than anything else. There is something about that 4" with round butt that makes it very comfortable in my hands.

[Intel6]

I have a few 625's I shoot lots of lead out of but I also have a nice 1955 Target that doesn't get much use as I don't want to mess with lead due to it being harder to clean. . As an experiement I recently been making 250 JHP's with my BT Sniper .458" dies. I make them with a 180 gr. .40 bullet in a .40 case and make a 250 JHP. I then run them through a Lee .454" push through sizer and put a cannelure where I want. I have always used a Redding Profile crimp for my revolver loading so I can put a propper roll crimp on them I loaded up some test rounds with Unique and had soime decent results. Still working on the process but so far I am liking it.

[Char-Gar]

Piedmont... I have both the 1st. and 2nd. Edition of Supica and Nahas Standard Catalog. They do indeed list the Brazilian contract under the Model of 1917. The information they give is brief and incomplete. The purpose of their book was for folk to identify and price Smith and Wesson handguns. It is in no way the definitive word on these handguns.

Strawhat.. I read the article provided in the link and that guy has no idea what he is talking about!

[Bret4207]

Chargar, it was that article, YOUR article, that got me looking for a 452423. Every one I've ahd has been undersized with one only just making .450! I do have one the the first GB 452423 clones, but as of yet I haven't cast a single boolit from it I don't believe. That darn BD45 shoots sooooo good I haven't gotten around ton trying anything else. Ever since I put the Wondersight on the Smiff '17 I've been a happy camper. What a great field gun!

[GLL]

Bret:

I ran the second LEE Group Buy which was designed by 45 2.1 as a 454423 and drops at 0.454" . The throats on my 25-2s and Model 17 are a little large so it works well for me.
They size down easily for the 625s.

Jerry

[Char-Gar]

Bret, you had to go and spoil my fun. I was sure somebody would take me on for being so hard on poor old Charles Graff.

I have a very neat 1937 Brazilian that I send back to Smith and Wesson for a factory reblue. I had to do a little conjoling to get them to do it, but I prevailed. It wears a Wonder Sight as well. It is sighted in for a 200 cast SWC going about 850 fps. It also wears a great set of Herretts grips. It is almost too pretty to shoot, but shoot it I do.

[Piedmont]

Chargar, it was that article, YOUR article, that got me looking for a 452423. Every one I've ahd has been undersized with one only just making .450! I do have one the the first GB 452423 clones, but as of yet I haven't cast a single boolit from it I don't believe. That darn BD45 shoots sooooo good I haven't gotten around ton trying anything else. Ever since I put the Wondersight on the Smiff '17 I've been a happy camper. What a great field gun!

It was Chargar's article that got me to buy that mould, too. Mine was terribly undersized like yours Bret. Erik Ohlen fixed me up opening the front band to .452 and the rear bands to .454" which is perfect for crimping in the groove with my older revolvers. It turned a deal into an expensive mould, though.

[Bret4207]

Hmmmm. Now you have me thinking about that single cav 423 I have and a HP! Maybe some day.

[Char-Gar]

I am lucky. I have an old Ideal SC and a Lyman 4C in 452423 and both cast .454 or better. I had Buckshoot hollow point my SC Ideal.

[Dale53]

This is one of my favorite threads. Apparently, it just keeps on "truckin' "...

I might as well add a picture or two. Here are my loads with the clone of the Lyman 454424 by NOE (I have a five cavity mould from NOE that produces a FINE 250 gr Keith with WW's+2% tin):



I run these with 7.0 grs of Unique with a Fed 150 primer (a not necessarily recommended load) that I believe are well within safety limits in a modern (after 1950 Model 25 Smith, a 625 Smith, and my Ruger SS Bisley .45 ACP Convertible). Understand, the Ruger will not allow you to run Auto Rim cases but .45 Cowboy Special cases work well in my Ruger and allow a good roll crimp). These loads chronograph at just over 900 fps. This is about as good a field load as a feller or gal needs.

It is seldom mentioned, but the .45 Shot capsules from Speer work well in these handguns. I use shot capsules in nearly all of my field revolvers (.38/.357, .44 Special/Magnum, .45 Auto Rim, and .45 Colt. See the Speer reloading manual for loads. I have often hiked and hunted in serious snake country and the shot capsules do a real job when loaded with #12 shot. They will positively shred a snake's head at close range (the only distance that you need to worry about a snake).

Dale53

[Pepe Ray]

Dale53
I share your enthusiasm for the 45AR and M25's and all that they generate.
Pepe Ray

[Catshooter]

Char-Gar is correct in his description of just what a '37 is. Just 'cause something's wrote up in a big pretty book don't make it true.

I agree Dale, a 250 (.45!) at 900 fps is all I need in the field too. If I could shoot like Elmer then the 1300 to 1500 fps loads and their flatter trajectories would be helpful. But I can't, never could.

I pulled a bullet from an '50s vintage AR Remington round and was interested to see that it measured .448! No wonder those puppies had a reputation for leading.

I think the AR is a very over looked and under rated round.


Cat

[Dale53]

Even at my advanced age, I am still a good shot. However, I have a self imposed range limit (depending on the cartridge and game) and don't exceed that. I have never been so "hungry" that I have had to go outside MY range.

YOUR range is easily obtained. Just get some pie plates and place them at 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards. Then, start shooting. The furthest range you can make 100% hits from a field position, is YOUR max range. Then just exercise a bit of self discipline and you are "good to go" (as they say...).

My hunting buddy and I would, in the weeks leading up to hunting season, shoot as many as 2500 full house rounds of .44 Magnum (our chosen deer load at the time) to get in shooting shape for hunting season. It worked, too.

FWIW
Dale53