.351 Winchester S.L - Model 1907

[Sprue]

Well, I did fire 10 test rounds last month. I haven't taken the time to load up any more. Its kind of a slow process machining down the brass or at least until I get several cases converted.

As for the test firing, all 10 failed to eject. I had very slight pressure signs so I will load the next ones down a bit. Two things I'm thinking that contributed to the failure to eject. One is that the cases probably needed to have been fire formed first and the second reason is that the chamber is pitted somewhat.

My thinking is that there are no issues with the converted brass itself cause the extractor seemed to work properly. The fired cases looked okay when I got them out.

As for the load data I used, there really isn't much of a variance window for the charge at all. At least from what I came up with during my research anyway.

Input anyone ??

[No_1]

Sprue,

I remember seeing info on the 351 S/L in old manuals I have so I went to digging. I only found data in 2 manuals, the Ideal/Lyman #40 and the Lyman #44. I did look in the manuals that are before these, between these and after these and oddly there was not data in them.

Anyway......

The #40 manual shows OAL of 1.906, case length 1.375, dia at rim .407, dia at base .377, dia at shoulder "straight", dia at neck .373. Mould listed is Ideal/Lyman 351319 which is a RNGC mould.

For loads I will list them as: powder - min charge/vel - max charge/vel

177 Gr. RNGC:
2400-15.0/1600-19.0/1900
4227-16.0/1550-19.5/1800
4759-13.5/1500-19.0/1950
unique-10.5/1590

180 Jacketed
2400-15.0/1530-19.0/1870
4227-16.0/1510-19.5/1800
4759-13.5-1500-19.0/1900
unique-10.5/1565
Notes: "Mechanism will not function properly if cartridges are loaded to low. Try near max"

In the #44 manual shows AOL 1.900, max case length 1.380, trim to length 1.376, small rifle primer, Lyman shell holder #15. "To insure positive functioning of the action, loads must be worked up to near maximum. 348 gas checks are used with cast bullets for this cartridge. At best our test accuracy with this cartridge could only be considered as fair. Best overall results were obtained with cast bullets and IMR4227 powder"

Lyman 350319
unique-12.0/1501-12.5/1751
2400-17.0/1861-19.0/2020
IMR4227-17.0/1658-19.6/1904
Note: Accuracy load: IMR4227-19.5/1904

180 Gr Jacketed
unique-10.0/1501-11.0/1587
2400-17.0/1597-19.0/1793
IMR4227-17.0/1400-19.5/1751

R.

[Doble Troble]

From what I've read Bonnie and Clyde collected all sorts of lead, launched from all sorts of guns. I read somewhere else (I think it was Precision Shooting) that Frank Hamer liked the Remington Model 8 (don't remember the chambering) and the 38 super.

Clyde liked the BAR. I guess even criminals sometimes have good taste.

[hydraulic]

Back sometime in the '80's the Nebraska Highway Patrol traded off their 1907's in exchange for Mini 14's, gun for gun, plus ammo. A friend won the auction and I wound up buying the last dozen from him. Most of them were bought by the officers who had carried them. They were engraved on the receiver with the badge number of the first class of highway patrol officers that graduated in 1938, if memory serves. They were the Police Model with the 10 rd magazine and the cup shaped loading rod. I hauled them around the gun shows for a couple of years trying to get $200 before I finally sold them. It has been quite a few years, now, since I have heard from anyone, but I used to get calls from retired HP officers wanting to know if I had any left. I think Frank Hammer used a Model 1910 .401. There was a company in St. Louis that made a 20 round magazine, (ST. Louis Plolice Supply?) for the WSL, and I think that is what he had. I'm going on memory here, so I may not have all this right.

[hydraulic]

Doble: You're right; Hammer had a Model 8 with the above alterations.

[scrapcan]

Sprue,

You should look at making a from tool to turn rim and thin case head at the same time. run the case on the mandrel, leave the cross slide set with the micrometer ring set at zero and just feed it in using the mic ring. That would make it a quicker process. You could make your form tool by using a finished case as your tool gage.

[inuhbad]

Hello everyone!

I was just in the process of typing up a new post seeking more information on this round, and then I came across this particular thread doing a search!

Good info here!

My uncle is a pretty big collector of antique & rarity firearms, and he recently purchased 1907 Winchester Self Loading rifles that are chambered in the rare Winchester .351SL cartridge...

He was hoping that if I could figure out a way to make/load some cartridges for them...

I've got load data books going back to 1982, and I STILL couldn't find any data for this cartridge in my books. From reading online, it would appear to be an older caliber considered obsolete a long time ago... Probably not popularly reloaded as most models were used in law enforcement.

I believe that's where my uncle acquired them... From an auction of old Prison Guard Armory rifles.

Occasionally he can find a little bit of ammo for them at a gunshow, but they're running over $2 PER ROUND! Even MORE if the ammo comes in an original BOX!

Also, I learned that http://www.buffaloarms.com/ happens to SELL reloading dies for the 351 Winchester Self Loading round, but they're running $163.00 for a set of RCBS dies. It's the only place I can find this particular die though...

They also sell brass cases in boxes (Bertram MFG) for $158/100 cases...
They sell brass cases in bags of 100 (don't know the Mfg info) for $110/100 cases...
They sell brass made from 357 MAXIMUM for $57/100 cases as well...

They sell a .352" RCBS Lubrisizer Die for $44.95 too...

That said, I'm having the darndest time trying to find a Lyman #350319 Bullet Mould!!!

Anybody know where I can find a Lyman #350319 Bullet Mould?

This bullet perportedly uses the 447 Top Punch as well for a Lube-A-Matic RCBS Lubrisizer...

I'm hoping to find this mould, and get everything I need to start making some of these bullets for my uncle and I. It's going to be an expensive startup cost, but well worth it in the end I hope!

Any good load data you've found on these yet for reliable cycling? Any updates since your last posting?

This is GREAT information! Thanks!!!

[waksupi]

Form from .357 mag. Turn rim to .410 dia.and cut extractor groove. This case will be approximately .090 short,but will function Ok.

From Nonte's, "The Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions".

[cuzinbruce]

Hi inuhbad,
If you want to buy dies, try Midway or someone else for Redding ones. I think they are much less than the RCBS. Midway also has brass, for less than Bertram. Older Lyman manuals have loading data. Look for manuals before 1960 or so. The 350319 mold is pretty hard to find. I saw one go for almost $300 on eBay a couple days ago. (And it was a single cavity mold at that!!!) I have been looking for one for a while. Another option I have read about, but haven't tried yet, is to use a .38 Special round nose cast bullet. Size it down in a couple steps, say .358, then .354, then .352 or something like that. Depending on what sizer dies you have.
Good Luck,
Bruce

[inuhbad]

Will the Redding dies work in my RCBS Rock Chucker 2 loading press? Is the threading/size the same?

Maybe I should get the Redding dies instead then?

Just curious as I didn't know they were the same... Are they?

Since I started loading in 2003 I've stuck primarily with Lyman & RCBS since I know they're almost always 100% compatible & interchangable.

Thanks for the great advice!!!

[KCSO]

Up until the late 70's these were still issue weapons for the State patrol in Nebraska. Tey sold them all off in the 80's. A Trooper buddy of mine carried one for years and when they sold them he didn't want to put the money $125 into one and now he wishes he had one. Although marginal for deer they were head and shoulders above a 30 carbine.

[cuzinbruce]

Redding, Lyman, RCBS, Lee and most other dies interchange. Same 7/8 X 14 thread. Shellholders too.

[sav300]

Sprue PM please.re:351 ammo.

[Wayne Smith]

For dies for almost any old or unusual round start with CH4D. Their list of available dies is amazing.

[Oldtimer]

Hi,
Hearing about these old rifles brings back some memories. I worked for the local police dept back in the early 70's. They had a good number of .351's as well as .401's. Even had probably a half dozen or so Thompson 45's. We used to take them out to the range and burn up a lot of ammo. The Tompsons were a ball to shoot. The best thing I remember about the .351's was the tremendous amount of recoil they had. They used to just kill my shoulder. Good luck finding ammo, and have fun. Be careful. Bob

[inuhbad]

Thanks for the info, everybody!!!

Also, I think I found a company that can make me a 2-Cavity Casting Mould for these boolits too!

I'll have to confirm this though.

[inuhbad]

I just picked up the set of Redding Dies for this caliber yesterday.

There was a small local shop that had one in stock! He told me it's such an odd caliber he kind of regretted buying that set of dies because it sat there on his shelves for years & years!

Nobody ever bought it, and he said he certainly won't make the mistake of keeping that caliber of die set as 'overhead' again!

Loading for this caliber should prove interesting though!

I'm happy to see that his local gunshop also had 357 Maximum brass - brand new in a bag for cheaper than MidwayUSA!

I probably spent more at his reloading shop than I should have though!

I hope I can get to the credit card bill before my wife does!

[omygosh]

I recently inherited a very nice and pristine 351. As everyone knows the ammo is the trick and I have already purchased the brass and bullets for reloading. I am open to the idea of possibly selling a couple of 10 round factory clips to finance the cost of purchasing a press and dies needed. If anyone is interested please let me know.

[Sprue]

Welcome ohmygosh......

When you get 25 posts I think it is, you might run an add in the Swapping/ Selling area.

Funny that this thread was re-kindled, I was just handling the old 351 SL earlier.

Way back when this thread started I was in the manufacturing or converting phase. I eventually did do some test firing. After that session I've never tried to improve my findings nor did anything further. I need to get back on this project though.

So I trust that you got a good deal on those 351 dies after that guy had them shelved all that time. I bought the Reddings from Midway but I don't like em. I think that 38/357 dies would be worthy if my memory serves me correctly although I haven't tried those yet, but I'm gonna.

What year is your rifle ?

Pull up a chair / take the stump and tell us a little more about your experiences.

over -... -.-

[Buckshot]

..............Apparently the 351 was a very popular firearm with several state prison systems. When we remodled and added a 2nd bathroom the guy who owned the plumbing company and I somehow or the other got to talking guns and he asked me about brass for a .401 Winchester. I had a article by Holt Boddison on the .401 and copied and gave it to him. Holt called it "The Blammer" because he said when you fired it it went, "Blam"

...............Buckshot