Lubes, velocity and accuracy

[Blackwater]

I know it's dangerous, but I was thinking today, and it occurred to me that some of the folks here who I trust most have observed that sometimes, the AMOUNT of lube used can affect accuracy. For one, Jump Trap, a friend, once told me that when loading for 7.62x39, the Lee bullet and his guns seemed sensitive to how much LLA was used to lube them. Too much, and he'd get periodic fliers. Keep the amount of lube at the "right" level, and no fliers. This got me to thinking that:

1. IF the amount of lube can affect accuracy; and
2. IF different lubes tend to work best with a given rifle and boolit at different velocities; then:

A. Does this tend to indicate that, at least as a general tendency (I don't think these things can be truly consistent because of the number of variables involved, but still, is there a GENERAL tendency?) lubes tend to give their very best accuracy at the velocity level just BELOW the point at which they begin to lose their lubricity and become overdriven?

I'm not even sure this question is very clear, but ... if not, tell me and I'll try to ask again more clearly.

Secondly, what is it that makes Felix lube (and others) tend to be "efficient" and accurate over a fairly broad range of velocities and pressures???? Yeah, I know. That's a pretty broad questions, but I thought the answers might be interesting, especially for those who've really given this some thought and experimented with it.

[felix]

BW, your considerations were paramount in coming up with a felix lube which was broad in application. The number one rule is to make lube with the lowest viscosity possible and maintain that level throughout the shooting session without barrel cleaning. That is all there is to it. In practice, however, that is about impossible to do. The major culprit is the various boolit styles folks like to shoot per bore size. Some with humongous lube grooves; some with many shallow grooves amounting to the same amount of lube as the humongous single groove; open versus closed breech guns; length of boolit travel make up the primary concerns for daily range time. Now add the fact that the lube must operate from freezing to boiling temps, and not be too sticky to handle. The lube must be soluble enough to clean up easily, either at the range when hot, or at home after being in the closet for a year or so.

There are lubes "out there" in the computer databases not yet formulated for reality. Frankly, they would not be cheap enough for us because the volume required to be economically feasible for manufacturing is not there. The lube (a polymer) will be formed by a "professional" who has the same hobby as ours, and be allowed to play games (on their own time) using company resources. The designer would have to employ a lab technician with the same interests who can obtain the feed from existing company stock to make up the lube. Fat chance of all this happening in one location, especially in the current economic/political climate. Even then, these two folks would need a shooter with different guns, boolits, and other stuff ready to go outside the door for safety sake, and be inside of some kind of silencer shed to keep the company guards at bay.

The definition of the ideal lube (per application) is one where by the lube will stick to objects other than itself. But, therein is the conflict because how would the excess be kept in a lube groove for storage? Hence the idea of a solid coating. But then, how would enough be kept on the boolit for an entire barrel travel?

... felix

[runfiverun]

viscosity.........
the tacky [yes pun intended] reason for my lubes consistency.
it does stick to stuff, hands,boolits, table, etc... but needs just the slightest amount of heat/pressure to work , or it doesn't.

[Recluse]

I've come to prefer a "tacky" or "sticky" lube in the lubesizer for most of my shooting applications. One reason is that by simply handling the boolit, the residue of the lube gets all over the boolit, and not just in the lube grooves via the lubesizer. So to that end, I've come up with two different formulas for lubesizer lube that are working out quite well. One is easy to make and the other, if you are a Catholic, will have you in the confessional for several hours due to the language you might use.

How much lube on the boolit?

When I first started casting, I used tumble-lube from Lee (the LLA stuff), and like everyone else, I used too much. Got a lot of smoke, it gummed up my seating dies, etc etc. Accuracy was decent to good, however.

Went to a lubesizer and bought pre-made sticks. Simply filled all the lube grooves because I figured that's what they were there for. Accuracy was hit or miss at times (pun definitely intended). Lubesizer broke (old sizer someone gave me for free), tossed it, and worked on an LLA technique.

Nothing earthshattering whatsoever how I do my tumble-lube mix and technique, but the accuracy I get is simply outstanding and equally consistent. I use just enough to coat the boolit. In fact, if I have to err, I err on the side of not enough lube rather than too much.

The fear or leading, pertaining to cleanup, is tantamount to monsters in the closet. ChoreBoy copper cleaners and old bore brushes make short work of lead. So does a mixture of vinegar and H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) in stainless applications.

Recently, I began learning a lot about lube grooves and how much lube--and yes, too much lube can adversely affect your accuracy, depending upon the lube you use.

A high-quality lube doesn't take much to do the job. Too much, it seems (and as I'm finding out), will result in flyers and inconsistent accuracy. The "why" to that is probably worth an entire separate discussion itself. The cheap "melt your favorite color of Crayon and call it a lube" lubes can probably NOT be over-applied. But it may also be why so many reloaders experience leading with their commercially cast bullets. (Along with bore size, too hot of a load, etc).

I've reduced the lube on my .358 148WC to just one lube groove and my accuracy is now rivaling what I get with the LLA/JPW/MS tumble-lube concoction. On the rifle boolits (.309 170 gr, 185gr, 200gr), I'm also only lubing one groove and loading to midrange/uper velocities with no leading and consistent accuracy. I recently picked up the Lee 155gr2R mould, and am playing around with it--it only has one true lube groove, but there is a "groove" where the gas check leaves a gap. I'm experimenting with applying the lube there only.

And yet, no matter what I discover or find out, it may only work well for my guns/loads/lube/allow-boolit combinations. . . may not work at all for yours or anyone else's.

It's the joy of casting your own and rolling your own.

[felix]

"The "why" to that is probably worth an entire separate discussion itself." Not really Recluse. Just means lube viscosity is too high for that application. Personally, I lower viscosity enough so all lube grooves can be filled. That technique is only worth it when the application warrants it. Charging beer can applications don't. Shotgun shells hiding in the weeds at a hunnert do. ... felix

[fredj338]

I find a lot has to do w/ the vel./pressure you push your lead bullets. For low vel./pressure applications like 38WC, a single groove will work fine, for magnum vel. I find you can't have too much lube in the grooves. I also prefer a lube that sitcks to the grooves. The WHite Label BAC or Carnuba are great lubes, very affordeable & they just work.

[44man]

At this point I can only discuss revolvers. I shoot many of all calibers with all kinds of factory molds and home made molds of every flavor in regard to lube grooves. With Felix or Carnauba Red, they ALL get filled and there is lube all over the boolits and on the nose, on the bench, in the dies, on the press handle and sometimes on the dog!
Keeping dog hair off my boolits is a project in itself!
Nobody can dispute the groups I get, the distances I shoot or the deer I kill.
I tried LLA a thousand times, I gave it all away. The piles of store bought lube sticks in my drawer must be OK though, none have grown mold!

[Lloyd Smale]

Im with 44 man. I use the same lubes and if it has a grove its filled. to some extent the lube in the groves keeps bullets with large lube groves from colapsing too.

At this point I can only discuss revolvers. I shoot many of all calibers with all kinds of factory molds and home made molds of every flavor in regard to lube grooves. With Felix or Carnauba Red, they ALL get filled and there is lube all over the boolits and on the nose, on the bench, in the dies, on the press handle and sometimes on the dog!
Keeping dog hair off my boolits is a project in itself!
Nobody can dispute the groups I get, the distances I shoot or the deer I kill.
I tried LLA a thousand times, I gave it all away. The piles of store bought lube sticks in my drawer must be OK though, none have grown mold!

[GLynn41]

In general -- it seems over the chrony that some what harder lubes are somewhat faster-(not much)- Dan at Mountain Mold thinks so too-- but the softer tacky lubes have been some what more accurate for me--in general-- I pretty well fill the groves too---- have not tried Felix's lube yet but one day will-I did try to make my own it is mostly wax based--- carnuba wax- purple cayrons-- paraffin-- Lanolin---transmission fluid too I think? It works --I tend to like the softer lubes Carnuba red does ok but I like the ones just down from it--never did real well with LLA -bullet fit seems to be just as important-- btw Felix hope the current bad weather in the Tenn, Ark, Mo area is good to you stay safe

[felix]

Cold and rainy, or hot and sticky like a good lube? This and last year we have had our share of "fronts" move through. Usually, they go north of here, and slightly west, from the southwest, like in TX,OK,KS,MO,IL,IN. Lately, they have been coming from the west or northwest and then continuing on the path you suggested. ... felix

[Bret4207]

I know it's dangerous, but I was thinking today, and it occurred to me that some of the folks here who I trust most have observed that sometimes, the AMOUNT of lube used can affect accuracy. For one, Jump Trap, a friend, once told me that when loading for 7.62x39, the Lee bullet and his guns seemed sensitive to how much LLA was used to lube them. Too much, and he'd get periodic fliers. Keep the amount of lube at the "right" level, and no fliers. This got me to thinking that:

1. IF the amount of lube can affect accuracy;and
2. IF different lubes tend to work best with a given rifle and boolit at different velocities; then:

A. Does this tend to indicate that, at least as a general tendency (I don't think these things can be truly consistent because of the number of variables involved, but still, is there a GENERAL tendency?) lubes tend to give their very best accuracy at the velocity level just BELOW the point at which they begin to lose their lubricity and become overdriven? I think it can. I think, and mind you this is just my worthless opinion, that differing styles and bore sizes can affect this. I think a smallish diameter boolit fired from a faster twist barrel will be more likely to shed lube if it's not "sticky" enough than a larger diameter boolit from a slower twist barrel. IOW I figure with something like a 6.5x55 from a 1/8.7 ( or whatever the Swede has) shooting Cruise Missiles at 2000 fps would be more likely to shed lube than a 32 Special 1/16 twist or 44 Mag 1/20 (or whatever yours is) at the same speed. That doesn't cover the lubrication factor I realize, but I'm still not sure our lubes actually "lubricate" in the sense that something like oil on steel does. I'm still thinking on that. I often run through this stuff trying to fall asleep. I haven't connected all the dots yet. Lead alloys have been used as lubricants in some steel on steel applications, or at least that's what some Swiss gondola/ski lift engineers told me, so I'm still wondering if our lubes actually lube or just provide a sort of.....barrier between the boolit and barrel. Now that is a lubricant, but that doesn't fill in the blanks for me. OIW- I know lots of lubes work very well and some very poorly, the reasons WHY they do or don't escapes me.

I'm not even sure this question is very clear, but ... if not, tell me and I'll try to ask again more clearly.

Secondly, what is it that makes Felix lube (and others) tend to be "efficient" and accurate over a fairly broad range of velocities and pressures???? Yeah, I know. That's a pretty broad questions, but I thought the answers might be interesting, especially for those who've really given this some thought and experimented with it.

We've discussed this stuff on and off for years. I remember asking WHY lube grooves work several years back, on Aimoo maybe, I think it lasted something like 6 pages and I still don't know for sure if we ever decided on a logical answer. I can't help but think this will end up the same way.

[felix]

Bret, that is what "bearing" metals are. They, formulated by Babbit initially, are the lube of choice still today, mainly for large weight applications, like dam generators, and heavy duty power plants in general. Norm Johnson has advocated shooting target wadcutters naked, in 38/357 guns. As long there is enough lead to engage the grooves fully, and not shear off, all is good. ... felix

[Bret4207]

Got that part Felix, these guys were talking about lead being used dry, not with oil as in a bearing application.

[beng]

I was just going to size & lube some 45-70 boolits when I found out I was out of lube. We, in middle Georgia can not go down to the gun store and just get it. I have read or heard others talking about "Home Made Lubes" from toilet wax with paraffin wax etc. What would be a GOOD recipe for a RCBS size & lube?

[runfiverun]

beng welcome.
there is a sticky on just lube recipes there should be something there to suit your needs.
look in the sticky section,and at the top of each section for other stickys

[joeb33050]

Lyman Alox worked fine for many years, then didnj't. Maven sold me some Lyman Super Moly, which worked far better than the defective Alox, shooting 5-shot 100 yard group averages of 2"-2 1/2" or so in my Savage Striker pistol. This with both grooves lubed on 314299. The barrel has a LOT of lube, black, in it. Wednesday with only the bottom groove lubed, and the nose wiped off= no lube, 17/IMR4227 averaged 2.121" for 6 groups, and 18/IMR4227 averaged 1.879" for 6 groups.
I shot 75 shots, never cleaned, the last 5 = .975".
Pat I. said several times, and I have tried, lube in ONLY the groove just above the gas check. It worked for me, but made me very nervous. Chicken.
I think that less lube shoots better and reduces cleaning required, but more data is needed.
I don't know that cleaning all the black moly lube out of the barrel is necessary, it takes a lot of brushing and patches, and seems to screw up accuracy for the first ?10? shots.
joe b.

[44man]

I don't think being "slippery" is good in a barrel. Some friction needs to be there. I know a super shiny bore in a muzzle loader will ruin accuracy. I don't know about an inline with a sabot, I won't own one!
I read somewhere where moly coated bullets and bores were causing SEE events too. Too much friction reduction.

[357maximum]

Lyman Alox worked fine for many years, then didnj't. Maven sold me some Lyman Super Moly, which worked far better than the defective Alox, shooting 5-shot 100 yard group averages of 2"-2 1/2" or so in my Savage Striker pistol. This with both grooves lubed on 314299. The barrel has a LOT of lube, black, in it. Wednesday with only the bottom groove lubed, and the nose wiped off= no lube, 17/IMR4227 averaged 2.121" for 6 groups, and 18/IMR4227 averaged 1.879" for 6 groups.
I shot 75 shots, never cleaned, the last 5 = .975".
Pat I. said several times, and I have tried, lube in ONLY the groove just above the gas check. It worked for me, but made me very nervous. Chicken.
I think that less lube shoots better and reduces cleaning required, but more data is needed.
I don't know that cleaning all the black moly lube out of the barrel is necessary, it takes a lot of brushing and patches, and seems to screw up accuracy for the first ?10? shots.
joe b.

I have never detected an accuracy difference in any rifle with any bullet, caused by a change in lube. I have never read of a reasonable test showing that lube made a difference in accuracy. There are so many lubes on the market, by so many suppliers, with different lubes used by competitors in cast bullet matches, that I conclude that there's no accuracy difference between reasonable lubes. Colonel Harrison reported that silicone lubes did not work well; I used NAPA Syl-Glyde in a 45-70 and found that it shot fine, as well as bullets lubed with Darr lube.
Lyman Alox bullet lube failed me recently, but this I think is because the formula is off-something's wrong-the bad lube is very light in color.
Now I may be wrong, and all the testing that I and most of you did with paraffin and moly and crisco and beeswax and vaseline and carnuaba wax and steam cylinder oil and lithium grease and ivory soap and mutton tallow and .............. may be wrong. wish there were a lube that tightened up my groups, and I want to hear about any lube and test that shows that. But for now, lube just don't matter.
joe b.

For velocities below 180 fps, using any reasonable cast bullet lubricant, there is no data showing that accuracy varies with the lubricant used. I don't have it, was not able to find it in my testing, and would be very happy to see the results of testing that showed such a variation. N.B. A not-reasonable bullet lubricant is one that has no demonstrated success as a bullet lubricant. Yak butter and gazelle tallow are examples.

joe b.

Joe I am stupid and unable to read the written word. Can you please explain to me how type of lube is incon ..inconseq...makes no difference but amount of lube can.. TAlk slowly and use small words please.

[45 2.1]

Joe I am stupid and unable to read the written word. Can you please explain to me how type of lube is incon ..inconseq...makes no difference but amount of lube can.. TAlk slowly and use small words please.

Now that is a set-up if I ever saw one...........
One thing you have to remember when testing individual items involved with the load, and that is: "You have to be a good enough shot to tell the difference when you see it". Those who shoot +1 MOA groups will probably not see the difference with most component changes. 357 Max has formulated several lubes which do very well in high velocity/pressure situations and has the ability to see the differences. In dealing with target velocities mentioned, you might pay attention to what Felix has said about lube viscosity, i.e. use as low of viscosity lube as you can for the situation. Accuracy will improve when you do.

[badgeredd]

Glad to see you are getting your own "data" there Joe.

Lube type and amount DO make a difference in my 35s. I also believe that the constant CLEANING of ones barrel will detract from the accuracy once one has a good load/lube developed. Unfortunately, I don't have data to prove it to anyone else...but I've proven it to myself so that's good enough for me. A 2" group isn't good enough for most of my guns since I do have data that proves they will do better with J-words. I am of the opinion that one can achieve accuracy as good as, or nearly as good as j-words if one has the right lube/boolit/load combination. Several on the forum have proved it to be so.

Edd