Why not make your own jackets?

[bohica2xo]

Jim:

It is a matter of scale...


That is the table he is walking on, probably running all 3 spindles @ 10,000 rpm - machine is rated 100 horsepower.



The ultimate "stairmaster". No wonder I was always worn out at the end of a 10 hour shift.

B.

[barryjyoung]

bohica2xo: Thanks for the information. I am trying to digest it all. I see what you mean about pressure in one direction only.

I ran Cincinatti Gantry mills like the one you showed at the Boeing Space Center in Kent WA. The ones there had three 5 axis spindles with tool changers and beds 200 feet long. I would fill a whole dumpster with chips every shift. Is that a 950 control on that old mill? Must have been a retrofit. These sure beat Wilsons.

[Jim_Fleming]

bohica2xo:

I ran 2 different Cincinnati Hypowermatics for quite a few years, but My God! The bed on the 'chines I've run couldn't have been FIFTY (50) feet long!

Good Job, Sir!

Jim

[ANeat]

Good old Milacron, (thats where I work) Great pics.......

Looks like a 950 to me

[bohica2xo]

Jim:

As they say "Few things in life are more dangerous than an unsupervised apprentice on a five axis machine."

Barry:

When I started out, Lockheed was still punching tape. Any CNC control was an improvment. We had a retrofit on a bar that used audio casette tapes to store programs...

I worked mostly in tooling, so we would build tooling on those beasts. Production was always amazed at the stuff we would do - they liked boring repetitive work.

ANeat:

I always liked most of cicny's equipment. I logged 2800 hours on Hydrotels during my apprenticeship, and was always amazed at what they were capable of. I ran some real crap too - K&T Modulines, Sundstrand Omnimills...

---

To all of you guys that have worked with the bigger stuff, a tip of the hat. Every time someone tells me they are a "machinist" I ask them what the range of equipment is they can run - it is amazing how many of them have never even seen a 50 taper spindle, and think all mills have a R8.

As an apprentice they sent us everywhere. One month it might be nothing but a Levin & a Microscope. Or a week on Moore jig bore, tapping 0-80 holes, the next week a five axis gantry. Tool & Die, production - until an advisor found your strong areas. If you went the distance with all of your fingers, you got a Journeyman card. I sure don't miss the 60 hour weeks.

B.

[barryjyoung]

bohica2xo:

I have been looking at punch presses. A 10 ton will run about $1500 which makes the price of a Walnut Hill look absolutely cheap by comparison. With that punch press comes a pretty steep learning curve by comparison. The walnut hill or Dave Corbin press will accept standard dies as well as load ammunition. I think I will probably go the Corbin route, though it would be nice to have a punch press.

I have run Sunstrand OM-1 and OM-2 mills, they are certainly crap. Of the stuff I have run SIP jig borers are the best for conventional machines and Leblond Makino the best for CNC.


The guy at Home Depot asked what I was working on when I asked if he had any type M copper tubing in 1/4 inch. He sort of freaked out when I told him I was making jacketed bullets. I guess the PC thing to do would have been to tell him I was making rubber baby buggy bumpers.

Barry

[deltaenterprizes]

Look for a book the NRA had for sale a long time ago "Ammunition Making". It was written by a Chemical Engineer that started out in an ammo factory in the Phillipines and them went to work at Western Cartridge. It has photos and drawings of the machines and tooling to make everything from the cups and anvils for primers to multi step drawing dies to produce cartridge casings and bullet jackets.

Link:http://openlibrary.org/b/OL11504385M/Ammunition-making
http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/history_mi...935998578.html

[bohica2xo]

Barry:

Look around a little more. A unit without up to date controls like this:

10 Ton press on E-Bay

Will not bring much. If they bolt that to a pallet, it will ship via Yellow or GI just fine.

You have to go to the used machinery dealers, and look through the orphaned stuff. There must be a few used machinery places where you are. Really, 5 tons is plenty for what you want to do. A 15 ton unit is like killing flies with a sledgehammer.

B.

[Jim_Fleming]

What you could've done was tell him that you were working experimental ventilation systems... High Volume of flow creates more through air flow, lol!

Or (all kidding aside) you could've told him you were working an experimental infloor hotwater heating system... Or even better, "Oh just an idea I have to try and accomplish.

Sorry Guys, I take intrusions like that seriously... One time a guy looked over a lot of my finished bullets, realized that I had more control over what goes into a chamber than is 'humanly possible' and he called me, to my face, DANGEROUS!!!

I grinned and told him he didn't know the half of it... He left and hasn't spoken to me since.

Take Care Y'all,

Jim

Barry,

The guy at Home Depot asked what I was working on when I asked if he had any type M copper tubing in 1/4 inch. He sort of freaked out when I told him I was making jacketed bullets.
Barry

[WILCO]

Every time someone tells me they are a "machinist" I ask them what the range of equipment is they can run

Biggest thing I've run are Acme-Gridley and Shutte 6 spindles........

[barryjyoung]

Barry:

Look around a little more. A unit without up to date controls like this:

10 Ton press on E-Bay

Will not bring much. If they bolt that to a pallet, it will ship via Yellow or GI just fine.

You have to go to the used machinery dealers, and look through the orphaned stuff. There must be a few used machinery places where you are. Really, 5 tons is plenty for what you want to do. A 15 ton unit is like killing flies with a sledgehammer.

B.

I am watching it now and have contacted the seller. Thank you.

I will go look at some used equipment dealers in Seattle on Tuesday. Now that I know 5 ton is plenty, I have a chance at getting what I need.

Thanks very much.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

Look for a book the NRA had for sale a long time ago "Ammunition Making". It was written by a Chemical Engineer that started out in an ammo factory in the Phillipines and them went to work at Western Cartridge. It has photos and drawings of the machines and tooling to make everything from the cups and anvils for primers to multi step drawing dies to produce cartridge casings and bullet jackets.

Link:http://openlibrary.org/b/OL11504385M/Ammunition-making
http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/history_mi...935998578.html

I am downloading it now. The only one I could find used was $250 and I can't afford that much. Thanks very much for the links.

Barry

[bohica2xo]

Wilco:
My back hurts thinking about that. A few months with a #5 W&S was plenty for me. The last Gridley I was close to was knee deep in sulphurized oil & chips... Did I mention I am not a production guy?

Barry:
There are plenty of machines out there, keep an eye on e-bay & the locals (craigslist too) and you may find what you want nearby. Here is another one on e-bay:

22 Ton Clearing

A bit more than you are looking for, but it is in CA. This is the "other" press arrangement, with the crankshaft axis facing you - the flywheel is in the back of the machine on this type.

5 tons. 10,000 pounds of force. Like dropping your pickup on something... For light tasks you can slow the flywheel down some if you like. A 1/3 hp motor can spin one up with a VFD.

B.

[inuhbad]

Wow! Great info!

[barryjyoung]

Wilco:
My back hurts thinking about that. A few months with a #5 W&S was plenty for me. The last Gridley I was close to was knee deep in sulphurized oil & chips... Did I mention I am not a production guy?

Barry:
There are plenty of machines out there, keep an eye on e-bay & the locals (craigslist too) and you may find what you want nearby. Here is another one on e-bay:

22 Ton Clearing

A bit more than you are looking for, but it is in CA. This is the "other" press arrangement, with the crankshaft axis facing you - the flywheel is in the back of the machine on this type.

5 tons. 10,000 pounds of force. Like dropping your pickup on something... For light tasks you can slow the flywheel down some if you like. A 1/3 hp motor can spin one up with a VFD.

B.

Hi bohica2xo:

Yes, I did see this punch press. I am hoping for a 5 ton Benchmaaster OBI or something like it. What does the acronym OBI mean? I have seen it applied to several pnch presses made by different manufacturers. I am waiting on a big check though and will probably not buy anything until that shows up. I am pretty sure I am going to score a punch press, a larger lathe and a Bridgeport when my money shows up. The plan was to buy a Corbin Press and dies but I am certain I can make all the dies I will need and the mill, lathe and punch press will expand my capabilities much more in other areas than a Corbin press would. I think I want a heat treat furnace too.

Either flywheel arrangement would work for me. One thing I am not is particular. This flywheel arrangement in back is what makes this a :stripper" press?

5 ton would be like dropping three of my truck on something.

Other than the clutch which seems very much like an electric clutch on an automotive air conditioning compressor, these things look pretty simple. Pretty much you get a heavy flywheel spinning then trip a clutch to drive a crankshaft with it for one revolution which moves the punch holder down and up. Right? I know some punch press clutches are pneumatic.

I get the feeling I would be a lot happier with a punch press than a Corbin press because of the versatility a punch press has. I see what you mean now about a hydraulic press. It has mucho power but only in one direction. I would have to make one with a double action cylinder. And still may.

I moved here in February. Lots of my junk is still in boxes in my new workshop. Sunday we finally got the compressor wired in. 220V is not my favorite. It was nice having plenty of power in the workshop subpanel for a change. In our previous house which was rented I ran everything in the shop except lighting from one 20 amp breaker plus one 20 amp breaker I installed for the table saw. In our current house which I own, there was already 40 amps in place for the saw. That leaves 160 amps at the workshop subpanel for the rest of my needs. It is still single phase, but after living on 20 amps for so long this is awesome.

The other consideration is space. In our last house I had my shop built 60 inch CNC mill, an 8X20 lathe, Cabinetmakers table saw, 6X40 horizontal bandsaw, thickness planer, 14 inch vertical bandsaw, full size floor model drill press, 6 inch floor model jointer, two bench grinders, water heater, washer and dryer, and mass stored wood and metal all in a one car garage. Even with all that in there, my wife and I both were able to comfortably work in there by carefully placing our machinery to maximize space. This house by comparison is huge. The laundry and water heater are elsewhere, the shop is not attached to the house and I have a 24X30 area dedicated to nothing but working room. This is about three times the space I am used to working in. Still building benches at this point. One bench has been completed for the sliding compound miter saw which has a depression for the saw in the middle of a 25 foot long bench that is level with the saw table. Oh that makes crosscutting so easy. One more workbench to put in and cabinets underneath to build so I can put everything away. That will not stop me from buying new used or used new machines and having them sit and wait for me to get to them though.

I sure appreciate all the information on punch presses. Without your help I am sure I would not have gone that way.

Barry

[barryjyoung]

I found a picture of the CNC mill I made. In this picture the Grizzly Minimill milling head is attached. It also has a Porter Cable router head. I built the bench it sits on from 100% recycled materials. The bench has no metal fasteners. Everything is pinned mortice and tenon joinery.

Barry

[deltaenterprizes]

Have you had a chance to look through "Ammunition Making" yet?

[barryjyoung]

Have you had a chance to look through "Ammunition Making" yet?

Hello deltaenterprises:

I downloaded the book from the link you provided and it is excellent. I am reading it now. Thank you so much.

Barry

[stiles]

Can someone show me an example of a double action press that you would use for a blanking and cupping die? Page 9 of Ammunition Making mentions this type of a press and I've never seen one.

[bohica2xo]

Barry:

The term "OBI" is an acronym for "Open Back, Inclinable"

This simply means that the press is made with an opening behind the die bolster, so that long stock could extend through the die from the front of the machine to the back of it - or the wall behind it...

Incline ability means that the press base is adjustable, so that the press can be tipped back, with the front edge of the die significantly higher than the rear edge. This can be useful for clearing punched parts out the "open back" on high production setups, or to assist with banking parts into a tool without the need to use a stop on the front of a die.

OBI is a common feature, but not really important for what you plan to do. Just make sure the stroke length on any press you buy is somewhat longer than the longest jacket you intend to make. You can special order a press with a very short stroke for high speed jobs, but they are not common.

"Shut Height" is another term you may see. This is the dimension from the bottom of the ram to the table, with the crankshaft at the bottom of the stroke. Almost meaningless if you will be making dies to fit the machine. Again, machines could be orderd with unusual shut height measurements - either very large, or somewhat reduced.

Clutches.
Most smaller presses use a mechanical clutch. It is a dog or key type with a very abrupt engagement. Imagine a keyway in that flywheel with a key in the crankshaft that can be engaged by a lever. One revolution, and it drops out. Many older presses had a simple foot pedal to acuate a mechanical trip lever.

Larger presses (20 tons or so) may have air clutches. I have seen 100 ton units with a plain old mechanical clutch however. It depends on the age, and who ordered it. Air clutches are usually an annular piston with a dry, multi disc clutch.

Clicking clutches.
When a mechanical clutch is worn, filthy or needs adjustment it will begin to "click". I have walked past many a press with the telltale "click" once per revolution of the flywheel. This is the key, kissing the edge of the flywheel slot. It is not the end of the world, but a fair warning that some maintence should be performed.

In the current atmosphere of light beam safety curtains, two hand controls, OSHA etc. a press with an audible click is treated like a grenade missing a pin. I bought a nice 10 ton unit with a broken 20 cent coil spring because it was clicking and "might malfunction". Took almost half an hour to fix. I sold it later for a significant profit.

It sounds like you are building a nice shop. I like the micro gantry CNC. You will be doing more 220v work as you add industrial machines. You will need to become familar with VFD's for your equipment. A VFD pays for itself quickly, and gives you variable speeds on things like a step head Bridgeport. I installed a VFD & a 3 phase motor on my pool pump a few years ago, and it paid for itself in 11 months @ 10 cents / Kwh.

B.