Load by weight or mold?

[HeavyMetal]

Before this gets to "deep" My thought is if you don't kow the payload weight how can you decide on a start load?

Lymans 358156 is a prime example. Read "Skeeter" Skelton for years, He claimed this mold made 150 grain boolits. When one was aqquired I find it casts 165 to 175 depending on alloy and the mold vintage!

At last I realized "Skeeter's" mold must have been an HP which, after I had Buckshot convert one for me, was exactly what came out of it, 150 grains!

I always cast, check payload weight and then work up a load from a selected start load from the manuals.

Never blown up a gun, never broke a gun ( from a load anyway) and never tried to make a magnum out of a caliber that wasn't.

Being safe is good.

[Rick N Bama]

My LEE 230 TLTC mold drops a boolit weighing 238 gr. I use the lower charges for the 230 gr. listed weight.

Shiloh

Mine does as well, by all means, use the boolit weight.

Rick

[oso]

Many of my molds have been modified by lapping to improve the boolit's fit so my weights are not standard. Even for my unmodified molds I have confirmed HeavyMeatl's experience. For some reason I like to know what my boolits weigh when working up a load. I also find it is worthwhile for me to pay attention to COL. Generally try to remember what powder is in the hopper as well. Of course I try to select an appropriate brass recepticle and have a working battery in the Chronograph and a freshly patched target. Or what was the question anyway? C'mon gents.

[Frank]

mroliver77 wrote

Boolits (and bullets) of different styles can weigh the same but seat much differently in a cartridge giving a substantial difference on powder capacity. For instance an LBT WFN leaves much more room in a loaded case than a boolit of the Keith pedigree. less room takes less powder to make same pressure. This can raise pressures way faster than a few grains of weight. When flirting with max loads either situation can quickly push pressures into the danger zone.
I agree you need more choices in your poll.
Jay
__________________
See Dick drink. See Dick drunk. See Dick drive. See Dick die. Don't be a Dick!

Bingo. Seating depth, bullet weight, bullet diameter - all are factors that affect pressure. Actually, a misleading if not dangerous question because someone may choose "weight" and blow themselves up because they didn't consider what mroliver77 mentioned.

spurrit wrote:

I'm happy with the answers, for the most part; it's just the people that have nothing to add, who simply MUST complain about something that bothers me. If you have something to add, great! That's what this is all about. If you don't, DON'T!

mroliver77 added what was needed to be added.

[spurrit]

mroliver77 wrote

Bingo. Seating depth, bullet weight, bullet diameter - all are factors that affect pressure. Actually, a misleading if not dangerous question because someone may choose "weight" and blow themselves up because they didn't consider what mroliver77 mentioned.

spurrit wrote:

mroliver77 added what was needed to be added.

I shoulda worded my OP differently; my point was that the heavier weight at the same length will produce higher pressures, but I have to wonder at just how much it affects it. When we change bullet weights, it's kind of a given that pressures will go up because we'll typically end up with more bullet inside the case, giving expanding gasses less room to expand.

[Frank]

When we change bullet weights, it's kind of a given that pressures will go up because we'll typically end up with more bullet inside the case, giving expanding gasses less room to expand.

But you can have boolits of the same weight that require entirely different charges. Maybe you can have a bulllet of LESS WEIGHT that requires a lesser charge. I know, this is tough stuff, huh?

[spurrit]

Typically, a lighter weight bullet requires a higher charge.

[jhrosier]

I went with by the mould, but I will qualify that. I don't load anywhere near the maximum load for any caliber so a lot-to-lot difference of 5% in boolit weight wouldn't raise any safety concerns for me.

I was browsing the Lyman 43rd ed. last night and noticed that they used to group the boolits by weight, using the same loading data for a number of different moulds in some calibers. It seems to me that differences in the profiles of the boolits would create more variances in chamber pressure than slight differences in weight, but then I've not done the same sort of testing that they did when working up the data.

I believe that working up to a load is the best method, regardless of weight, hardness, or profile.

I don't hunt with cast, but if I did, I would go to a heavier boolit and/or larger caliber to get more power, rather than pushing velocities into the danger zone.

Jack

[spurrit]

I don't hunt with cast, but if I did, I would go to a heavier boolit and/or larger caliber to get more power, rather than pushing velocities into the danger zone.

Jack

For the most part, that's just what I do. I've played with the "Ruger only" loads, but stayed 3-4 gr. below what Linebaugh tells us is maximum. I just had to see the elephant, I guess. Now that I've seen it, I just load for accuracy, but also for the most velocity I can get, while maintaining controllability for follow-up shots.

[Shiloh]

The guys are right of course, you work your load up. I think what you are asking is, if the bullet wt. varies from vatch to batch, do you adjust powder charge? Once I settle on an alloy or even approx. alloy, the wt. will vary no more than 5gr up or down. So at tAt point, I don't change powder charge. The stamped mold wt. & bullet wt. can have little in common.

Miy boolit weights can and do vary. My loads begin near the suggested starting weight and some start below. I have one load that runs perfectly at .3 BELOW starting charge weight. That is with an AA #5 clone powder. This has also been the case with cannister powders.

Shiloh

[Shiloh]

I guess what I'm asking is, which do I worry about more: case capacity taken up by the seated bullet, or projectile weight?
Also, when do I start worrying about bullets being oversized? With my Keith loads, I just size everything .454, which is slightly oversized, but I want as complete a burn as possible.

BTW, I'm shooting old model Vaqueros, and the load is for long range. (well over 100 yards; I was planning to go to the Elmer Keith memorial shoot this weekend, but will have to wait for next year)

I knew exactly what you were asking from the first post.

I have two LEE molds that require seating slightly below published seating depths for proper functioning. Because I start at or slightly below published powder charge weights for a particular weight boolit, I am erring on the safe side
There is a reason that given powder charge per boolit weight are listed. These figures aren't just made up.

Start at or near suggested starting weights. Watch for pressure signs, and develop loads accordingly. Boolit sizing diameter is also part of the equation.

Shiloh

[Bret4207]

In the end the gun determines what is most accurate. It's our part to determine what is safe in our view as far as pressure goes, as far as recoil goes and what the acceptable accuracy and feeding parameters are. I think knowing the true weight helps in deciding where start with the load. All the other variables- case capacity, OAL, distance into the leade we seat... all that plays a part and we have to try and remember that with every load we work up.

I don;t know about anyone else here, but I've forgotten a few of those things from time to time and had a surprise or 3. The basics remain no matter how long we've been at this.

[Jaybird62]

+1 on load workup on standard velocity loads for every cartridge and for every gun.

[jdgabbard]

I go by the weight. It just, as you might not have data for a particular mold. Seems to have been working out nicely for me.

[lead_her_fly]

I load to the bullet weight. I try to cast so I get the correct weight from the mold, i.e., via alloy. If my alloy is right, the advertised weight should be attainable.

Most of my molds are H&G's. I haven't had any trouble getting very close to those weights using straight wheel weights. I get even closer when I add just a "smidgen" of Linotype.

FWIW

[tactikel]

Bullet weight; all new molds/alloys get weighted (after gas check). Start conservative looking for leading, accuracy, and work up your loads. Pressure dosent know the stamping on you mold, it only knows what it is pressing against!

[NHlever]

Perhaps the OP is asking us to consider these two variables out of all the ones that can affect a load which one would we give most importance. Well, that is still a mixed question as both items need to be looked at. I just read an article in Handloader on that bullet, and the author got 100 fps difference in velocity out of two bullets from different molds made at different times but with the same number using the same alloy. It turns out the crimp groove was in different places in the two molds. Another example is the 300 grain Speer jacketed bullet. In the new manual they show almost identical velocities for that bullet compared to the 250 /260 grain bullets by using a crimp groove that leaves more space in the case. In both those examples it sure seems that bullet design means more than weight. Given those examples and my experience, I would give the design more weight ( pun intended) than the weight of the boolit. Elmer Keith did that when he designed his famous bullets, made the nose longer, and left more space in the case. If one looks at the Lyman .357 mag cast bullet data he will see that maximum charges vary more by design than weight. So, for what it's worth I'll chose that variable as being the most important, but always be conscious of the weight of my cast boolits V.S. the published weight when working up my loads.

[wallenba]

If my bullets are just a few grains off the mold weight, which they usually are since I like hard bullets, I load for the mold. Looking at it the way Isaac Newton would, in a perspective of physics, a 2 grain variance of a 240 grain bullet would be about the weight of a 1 inch square post-it note. The propellant will probably not notice. Shorting the propellant though......bad.