Paper rings...again

[docone31]

If the rings come out with each cartridge, no biggee. Sooner or later the paper will make shiney the entry into the rifleing.
If the rings remain in the chamber, they will cease to grow as they reach diameter. You might have difficulty removeing them, or chambering with them in place, sooner or later.
Paper, will reach a point where it is non-compressible.

[montana_charlie]

If you study the shape of my boolit in the pic, you will see anything over the ogive is impossible.

Post a picture of one of your loaded rounds. I am still confused about how far out on the bullet your patch goes.
CM

[405]

dubber,
You said .510" groove and .511"+ PP diameter. Couple of things to try before re-throating. It may not be a problem with the throat! I know that in both my Montana Sharps which have short throats, tapered type smooth sided PP bullets shoot very well. I shoot either near pure lead swaged bullets or very soft cast.

I cut the paper width so that the leading edge is about .1-.2" past the break between shank and ogive (onto the ogive). This helps ease the paper thru the transition into the bore. Also, the PP diameter is .453-4". That allows the bullets to be seated out enough so that the leading edge of the paper is lightly engraved by the lands. Both guns have a bore diameter near .450" with groove at .458". The PP diameter ends up about half way between bore and groove. I think the soft bullets obturate enough to fill and seal the bore. I always use either a .030" or .060" fiber wad between powder and bullet.

So you might try sizing down some bullets to where the PP diameter is something like .505". This may allow seating the bullets out just a little farther and get the nose and some of the patched portion into the lands. Dunno, just a thought.

[dubber123]

Post a picture of one of your loaded rounds. I am still confused about how far out on the bullet your patch goes.
CM

I have always used my bros. camera, and it's Kaput right now. But, I can give this: The bore sized section, (.501"), is .900" long. .580" of this is in the case, and it is this amount, (.580") that is patched. I just have been trimming flush with the case neck, as anything left beyond that hangs up when seated. There is .32" of un patched, bore ride section in front of the case, (+ the short round nose).

[dubber123]

405, some of my last post may contain some useful info on how my boolit looks. It is basically ALL bore sized shank, it's almost a wadcutter. If I sized down to .505" patched diameter, I would be .005" undersize. Were you thinking a soft alloy would slug up to fill the grooves?

I am already concerned my alloy may be too soft, it's 50/50 WW-Pure lead by volume, (equal parts). I just chronoed 1 at 1,735 fps. and I will likely nudge it up a little higher. I would think a pure lead slug would turn into a pie plate upon impact.

A more tapered boolit sounds like what I would need for a proper PP boolit. That is beyond my skill to cobble up, I would have to have one cut.

[405]

dubber,
Yes, a softer alloy might not shoot well at such high velocity. You'll just have to experiment to see. Of course if you drop vel down a little a softer alloy may shoot better and still expand nicely and give enough penetration on game. With a double rifle long range is not the issue- I'd think accuracy and balance between penetration and energy/upset.

Anyway, as to the question of obturation of a particular bullet to fill and seal bore. Again that may be a balance between your desired velocity and how a softer PP bullet acts in the gun. In shooting blackpowder loads with paper patched bullets seems that many of the best shooters use a soft alloy and a paper patched bullet of final diameter that falls somewhere between bore diameter and groove diameter. The very old original paper patch bullets were usually sized in that zone... somehwere around bore diameter up to just under full groove diameter. 1) the softer alloy would obturate to fill bore. 2) the smaller diameter bullet would still chamber in a fouled bore. Naturally blackpowder loads usually don't get to the velocity levels you're talking about.

I'm not sure of how well a harder alloy paper patch bullet would shoot if sized small.... between bore and groove diameter. Just have to shoot-n-see. That .505" figure I gave assumes that would be between bore and groove diameter in your gun?

Another thought... My other assumption is that you're designing this load around a dangerous game idea??
If so, then you might also consider trying a gas checked cast bullet with the smokeless higher velocities. In that case for sure you'd want a final bullet diameter of about .510-511".

Just some more rambling thoughts

[dubber123]

405, very good info, and some insight into how they work. I will have to think upon how to cut a slightly smaller mould to try, or look into some smaller size dies and see if I can squeeze these down. I may do another gun, likely a 50-70, and I may load BP in that one, so your info is appreciated.

It's really more of a play toy, but it's no fun missing. I am actually VERY encouraged by how these PP boolits shot for my first attempt. I read many posts where guys fought a long battle to get them figured out. I loaded a few more, and I think I may have actually had a slight crimp on them. I backed off the seat die, and used the taper crimp to iron out the sides after the M die expands it.

I may take it on a bear hunt when it's done, but it would be a black bear hunt, and probably any .50 cal boolit would suffice. This is my "big" load, I have a little 390 gr. wadcutter that will likely get shot alot for practice.

[docone31]

Just get a sizing die. A Lee Push Thru should do the trick.
If nothing else, it makes everything even.

[dubber123]

I got a pair of push throughs, a .501" that is right on .501", and a .510" thats actually .511". I was concerned about the .510" being oversize, but I re-read some posts, and .001" or so over groove seemed acceptable, so I have been using it. If I wanted to try the .505" final diameter, I will need to squeeze the boolits down about .005"to .006" more.

[docone31]

If you wrap at .505, then size, you will be all smiles.
You will be suprised at how tough that wrap is.

[dubber123]

If you wrap at .505, then size, you will be all smiles.
You will be suprised at how tough that wrap is.

Even though that will be .005" smaller than my groove diameter? I do assume you mean .505" as a final, ready to shoot diameter.

[montana_charlie]

dubber,
Here's an off-the-wall idea.

If you pulled the decapping pin out of a 45/70 full-length resizing die, you would have an interior that starts at a bit over .500" at the bottom end...and tapers to a little less than .480" at the top.

If you were to push a .501" bullet up into a die like that, it would 'swage' the nose into a mild taper. You may not have to go very deep, just enough to affect part (or all) of the .320" in front of the case mouth.

You might adjust the setup so you push the bullet in till the nose touches...then go (say) another quarter inch.

Pushing a bullet partway into a reloading die is a weird thought, but it shouldn't hurt anything.
With the decapper out, you should be able to push the bullet back out with light tap on a flat ended punch...and not seriously deform the nose.

Depnding on how much force is required to push the bullet in...you may need to run it through your .501" sizing die if the body swells up.

Worth a try...?

CM

[docone31]

Yeah, final size to either .505, or 506 if that is what you are looking for.
When I final size my patches for my Smelly, I take them from .318 to .314 without issue. Quite easy.
You should find the same true with your patches.

[dubber123]

MC, I will give it a try. I just cast and sized a bunch to .501". I will see if I can taper it. I will have to taper quite a ways, about .4" by guesstimate.

[John Boy]

This ring looked like a bunch of the patch had wrinkled up and torn off.

Dubber, are you chamfering the inside of the case mouth on your brass? Could be and only a guess, when the round is being chambered, if there is no chamfer on the mouth - the paper may be being torn at this point with the pressure against the bullet towards the case.

With a chamfered case and a slight crimp to remove the bell, I've had no paper cut as you describe

Personally, I get better results with reloads using a 22 1/2 degree reamer instead of the 45 degree one.

[405]

dubber,
MC's idea is a good one to try. I needed a push thru sizer of a particular size one time. Of course it was in the middle of one of the huge gaps in Lee's regular sizers so no way to hone out a smaller one. I found a case sizing die for another caliber that was close in the neck specs to what I needed. I already had an assortment of Lee rams that were close enough. I cut the cartridge sizing die off with a chop saw about 3/8" above the shoulder. Honed out the neck sizer portion to exactly the size I needed. Presto custom push thru sizer. Lee is currently running many months behind for custom push thrus. I think with some tuning and some good lube you shouldn't have a problem pushing a bullet part way in then back out of a particular die to get a little taper on the nose.

I mentioned earlier about the possibility of trying a GC bullet in your gun for maybe some reliable accuracy at higher velocity. Here's a link to a source.... as an option. When you click to the page look at the 50 cal NEI 455 gr GC bullet at 15 BHN. Might work for you? http://www.montanabulletworks.com/wst_page7.html

As far as splattering a soft bullet on game without penetration. I know a pure lead roundball at high vel and/or at close range can do that. The only thing close to what your using I've had experience with in shooting big game is a pure lead 50 cal 370 gr Maxiball out of a muzzleloader at about 1300 fps max. MV. I've shot a couple of large deer (250 lb) and a large black bear (350lb) with that. Every bullet passed completely thru each. A couple of the bullet paths went thru dense tissue and some bone. You shouldn't need to worry about penetration on such game with your type bullet even in a softer alloy at least in a slightly lower velocity range <1500 fps. Really big bears +800 lb or tough African game might be a different story

[303Guy]

I made the mould myself, and it is smooth sided, weight is 560 grains.

I missed that bit. You don't actually have a problem then. I did get paper rings but solved that with boolit shape. Tapered! I have just fired a 8.20mm heel diam patched boolit through a No4 Lee Enfield. No paper rings there. The largest portion of the throat is only 8.05mm. The patch diam at the nose was 7.95mm. Bore diam is 7.7mm. Groove diam is 7.95mm

(Translating into 'American')
Heel diam - .323
Nose diam - .313
Bore diam - .303
Groove diam - .312

So, I am suggesting that although your chamber may have some quirks causing paper rings, you also have the solution with boolit design right there in your hands!

[dubber123]

Well, I will try and hit everybody, John Boy, yes, the cases are chamfered, I did feel a slight "bump" at the end of the seat stroke, so I backed off the seating die body and just use the taper crimp now.

405, thanks for the info, they have some nice looking designs. I can see me getting another mould cut for sure. I was shooting 450 gr. plain base boolits at a touch over 1,900 fps. with surprisingly little leading, and this was with only 2 of the 3 grooves lubed. (I had these cast for my 50-70 pistol, and didn't need the extra lube). The GC design shown would surely work fine.

MC, I tried the 45-70 die trick. It works!.... Sorta. I cleaned the die body, and lubed a boolit with RCBS case lube for extra insurance. I ran a boolit in, and it went as easy as any push through. I put an oak dowel down the die to pop it out. Broke the dowel. Tried again, same thing. Ended up using a steel punch, but got it out. The boolit nose didn't take it well, but it shows I could get .013" of taper if I wanted. If I didn't go in so far, maybe they would come out easier. I Should give it another try.

[dubber123]

I knurled some boolits last night and patched as usual. I had been losing quite a few during sizing by the patch sliding off the smooth boolit sides. After the knurling, I lost none! I loaded 2 for chronographing, and without trimming to the case neck like I had before, they dropped right in, and showed some rifling marks on the paper. This has never happened before. I can only assume the knurling gave the patch somewheres to go, and slightly reduced my overall diameter. I still got a paper ring with 1 shot though.

[405]

dubber,
Since I pretty much stick with smooth tapered bullets for patching not much help about knurling, etc. One thing you can do if you haven't already is to either slug or cerrosafe cast your chambers/throats. I assume your double is open breeched to where you can easily access the chamber area with a short rod? Either way (slugging or casting) will work. If open breeched, then a tapered 55 cal (more or less) soft lead slug can be driven in then driven back out in reverse to where it will show the entire throat area. If not then use some cerrosafe to get a good detailed picture of the chamber ends & throats. May help in selecting next approach?