stopping power

[brianintheup]

What constitutes stopping power sectional density or foot lbs of energy? Or do both play into the equation?

example:
A 44 mag. with 19.1 grs of 2400 behind a 300 gr jsp has around 750 fps of energy a 45 Colt with 18 grs of 2400 behind a 300 gr jsp has around 750 fps.

Are they the same or does one have more stopping power than the other?

Brian

[Uncle R.]

Brian:
Just a quick note - fps is a unit of speed - energy is usually denoted in foot pounds.
<
And oh yeah - you've probably opened up a real pot of hash with THIS question...
<GRIN>
Uncle R.

[Dan Cash]

Sectional density, given an appropriately constructed projectile is what gives penetration. Bullet weight, diameter, shape and velocity all work together to create wounding. The only "stopping power" with shoulder mounted or hand held weapons is a blow to the central nervous system. In the example given, the .45 would probably do more damage than the .44 given equal bullet shape and construction. The .44 would probably penetrate deeper, all other things being equal. Either one is deadly.

[454PB]

In theory, the energy delivered by any bullet/boolit is determined by weight and velocity. Raise either or both and the energy goes up. Sectional density and ballistic coefficient determine how far out from the muzzle that energy lasts. Stopping power depends on the target. For a one pound gopher, a .224 boolit at 2500 fps has tremendous stopping power, for a one ton cape buffalo, not so much.

Let the discussion continue.....

[45 2.1]

Everyone is approaching this incorrectly. You have to transfer the boolits energy into the animal, however thick or thin that animal is. Any potential energy going out the far side is lost................
It really depends on what you shooting as to how to answer this question. I've had deer completely fold their logs up and drop or fall over sideways when shooting cast hollowpoints into them. A buffalo would have different requirements as would a tender, thin skinned animal.

[sqlbullet]

Forensic definition of stopping power from "Forensic Science" 2nd edition.

"One concept integral to the effects of firearms is "stopping power". Although it may have been discussed before the 1890's, it came to the forefront in the Spanish-American war. The story was told of soldiers attacking U.S. Army personnel. The enemy soldiers continued the attack after being shot in the heart. The outcome of the publicity was that the standard side arm of the USA officer became a .45 caliber weapon instead of a .38.

Newton's third law of kinetics says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Thus, if a handgun is fired, the backward force or recoil is equal to the force of the bullet. Obviously, the force of a fired handgun is not capable of knocking a person down. The person is stopped by a loss of brain function that is almost instantaneous after a firearm injury to the head that penetrates or perforates the brain. This is true for almost any modern firearm. A gunshot wound to an organ other than the brain stops the person through loss of perfusion of the brain."

"Destruction of the heart...will cause near instantaneous loss of blood pressure and thus, perfusion to the brain. However, the brain will function for 10 to 15 seconds after being shot in the heart. A gunshot wound to a less vital organ will provide even more time. Therefore the concept of stopping power is not terribly accurate. Any firearm has tremendous stopping power if used to shoot a person in the head. A firearm has no stopping power if used to shoot a person in a place other than the head."

In simple terms, stopping power is the ability of the speed/energy/momentum/terminal ballistics performance of a given round to take out the central nervous system or cause extreme blood loss. Generally, bigger and faster are better at this than smaller and slower. However, a properly placed 22lr will stop a cow in it's tracks if properly placed.

[HeavyMetal]

Are you trying to determine "stopping Power" as it relates to game or humans?

These are to totally different requirements and, as such, have to totally different answers.

I will make the guess your talking self defense. In the real world both loads would perform the same with no advantage had by either except in the eye of the shooter.

Shot placement is paramount, in either game or self defense, everything else is simply second place.

[brianintheup]

I agree with everything that is said about shot placement. Now I will add another statement to my original question. Which (.44 mag or .45 colt) would have more stopping power on a bear. I know individuals have taken bear with both calibers. However, the .44 mag is capable of producing higher foot lbs of energy. I know that there are more powerful handguns out there but these are the two that I have shot and can comfortably shoot to become proficient.

Thus, the question which has more stopping power. Sectional density .45 colt or foot lbs of energy .44 mag.

[Hurricane]

Stopping power is a function of breaking bones, destroying vital organs, and massive blood loss. Calculations do not predect stopping power with great accuracy.

[HeavyMetal]

As I see this question it is now about construction of a specific revolver not about a specific load.

My thought is in a ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt and a ruger super Blackhawk in 44 magnum both with 7 1/2 inch barrels you will be able to load to the same power levels, or at least so close your bear will not know the difference.

Now lets change the ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt to a second or third gen. Colt in 45 Colt.
Now your at a distinct disadvantage with the Colt because you can not safely get the same power level out of that gun that you can out of the Ruger!

I also would not use the 300 grain load at 750 FPS in either caliber for bear defense!

If you have a concern about a possible bear attack pack a rifle.

If this is not feasible, because of pack size, climbing issues or what have you, then pack a revolver that has enough snap to get the job done.

A recent post had the question about which two guns were best suited to defense against a black bear. Neither gun listed was a real winner but our poster went on his visit and never saw hide nor hair of a bear.

In some of these case's people are trying to "make do" with what they have. Considering the times I understand perfectly.

However I will pass along one of my grandfather's wise ideas about firearms for defense:
What is your life worth to you? Then buy accordingly.

[sheepdog]

Everyone is approaching this incorrectly. You have to transfer the boolits energy into the animal, however thick or thin that animal is. Any potential energy going out the far side is lost................
It really depends on what you shooting as to how to answer this question. I've had deer completely fold their logs up and drop or fall over sideways when shooting cast hollowpoints into them. A buffalo would have different requirements as would a tender, thin skinned animal.

Exactly. Your burning gases impart energy to your projectiles mass. When the mass hits your target you want that projectile to full absorb 100% of the energy. Size, mass, etc are unimportant as long as the necessary energy is absorbed. It doesn't matter if you get crushed in a hydraulic press or a particle the size of a grain of sand goes through you at the speed of light, its the energy that kills you. Thats why the 9mm fmj has a bad rep, very little energy imparted.

As papa used to say "Its not the fall that kills you, its the rapid deceleration that a bitch"

[Slow Elk 45/70]

HeavyMetal, +1, I've used the 44 mag & 454 C on bear , the bear never knew the difference.
44 mag / 250K 21gr 2400 =Dead, 454 C /300grFP 23 gr 296 = Dead...dead is dead.

Either boolit in either caliber will kill anything we have here in AK. With Proper shot placment. The rest is open for discussion...

[Jim]

Velocity squared times bullet weight in grains divided by 450400 equals bullet energy in foot pounds. You'll need a 10 digit calculator to run this out.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Then what and under what conditions are you trying to stop something?
A 100 pound wild mean dog shot from ambush could be STOPPED with a well placed .22 short through the ear cannel. Get that hostile beasty turned towards my 155 pounds of flesh and my Mossy 12 guage pump with .685 round ball just may need all 6 rounds to STOP that carnivore from getting a chunk of me.
A 4000 pound 20 foot plus crocadile laying on a mud bank sleeping with a 80 pound goat in his belly could be easily dispached with a 357 magnun bullet through the open mouth and into the little brain from the right angle. But put that swimmer in the water with an appetite and you better be loaded with hard cast Round Ball in a 12 guage and prepared to let that monster get to about 5 feet away for a spine shot.
So it all comes into play. Projectile Placement, intellegence, situation,.... But I still choose to have to big a gun and to big a caliber cause I just may need it. My 155 pounds cannot afford to much instant weight loss.

[Curly James]

Lots of good answers here and they all amount to the same thing, they ain't no guarantees. Human or game animal, remember this mantra, placement, penetration, and prayer. A little common sense in your choice of firearm when hunting wild game or choosing a self defense gun will help also. And, sometimes you just do the best you can with what you got at hand, the prayer part helps a lot in that case.

[mousegun]

Terminal ballistics in a nutshell:

• Penetration is directly proportional to velocity.
• Penetration is directly proportional to sectional density.
• Wound channel diameter is directly proportional to meplat size.
• Penetration is inversely proportional to meplat size.
• Kinetic energy is equal to the work available to produce a three dimensional wound channel and deform a bullet.
• "Energy dump" has no meaning in wounding mechanics.
• For effective wounding performance with an expanding bullet, 20% to 40% of available work (kinetic energy) is used to deform the bullet, the rest is available for hydrodynamic wounding.
• "Stopping Power" is an observable effect, not a dimensioned quantity.
• Wounding effectiveness is dependent on accuracy, appropriate bullet construction and adequate wounding mechanics.

It's all here:
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b.../wounding.html

[Lloyd Smale]

huricane said it closest to what i believe. theres no such thing as stopping power in a handgun. Stopping an animal fast is a matter of destroying or damaging the vital organs and shutting down the central nervous system and in most cases it matters little what size or weight of projectile you use. Now killing power is a bit differnt. If your not interested in stopping the animal right now, just interested in killing it quickly and humanely a bigger bullet that penetrates through an animal is better. the longer path of penetration gives more of a chance of hitting major blood loss areas like the heart lungs liver, arterys and viens, I put no store in a handgun bullet that stays in an animal. The shock from a handgun bullet is minimal anyway and i want pass through penetration so i can insure i will hit the vitals everytime and even at raking angles and it also gives two holes to blead out of. How many times have you hit an animal with a smaller bore rifle that gave one tiny hole in and dumped all its energy and had the animal run off anyway and leave little or no blood trail in the process. Alot of guys will argue with me on this but if a bullet doesnt exit, no matter what kind or caliber gun im shooting i consider it a failed bullet. If you want to see how little ft lbs of energy really help you put a 100 lb sack of corn or sand on a line where it can swing and shoot at it with a 300 weatherby, a gun that cranks out lots of ftpds of energy. Hit with one the bag will barely move. It will show you that no gun actually has knock down power. dangerous game hunters learned long ago that big diameter heavy and slow bullets kill better because they make it to the vitals every time and at every angle. Shot placement and the ablility of a bulet to penetrate to the nervous system is what constitutes knock down power. A 380 to the brain bucket will stop a man faster then a 44 mag hp in the lungs ever will.

[brianintheup]

All the input agrees with my conclusions that I already had. I like a cast bullet with a big meplat. I want a bullet that isn't going to stop in an animal but bust through the bones and come out the other side. Granted the "wound channel" might not be as big but like Llyod Smale said a 380 to the brain bucket will do the job. Thanks for all the feed back

[BD]

I agree with Lloyd for the most part. "Stopping Power" and "killing power" are two different things, and in the world of cast boolits absolute energy has very little to do with it. IMHO, when talking cast boolits, energy "expended in the animal" has little to do with it either. It's a question of anatomy. To stop, or kill, an animal, (man included) you need to disrupt enough of what that animal needs to function so that it stops functioning. With cast boolits I believe in doing this by completely penetrating through and breaking up everything in the bullets path.
I've had great luck with big flat meplats around 1,000 fps or so, and I'll let you know how that concept works out at 2,000 fps this fall if I'm lucky.

To answer the poster's original question: I think that the .44 may get the nod as it has more ability to keep that meplat's terminal velocity up there all the way through the target. I think the additional sectional density gives it an edge. Also, in the .44 mag the velocity would typically be higher.

Energy "dump" can be very effective using condom bullets at high velocities, and I do hunt with a .270 WBY mag, when I'm hunting large open areas, or frozen lakes. I use it primarily for it's very long point blank range, and it does an impressive job of "stopping" things with boiler room hits. Deer hit with the 130 partitions @ 3350 fps go right down leaving a visible red mist in the air. Caribou hit with the 150 partitions at 3150 fps stop in thier tracks, lock thier legs, and then after 10 or 15 seconds they just collapse. There is very little meat damage, but the lungs are jello. I killed 6 deer and 4 caribou with that set up, not a one has taken a step after the shot. It is the hammer of Thor out to 300 yards, with a good bit of margin of error available in range estimation. But, it isn't shootin' cast boolits, it's costing about 50 cents every time I pull the trigger, and I can't really say it's "fun" to shoot, just for shootin's sake.
BD

[softpoint]

To me, killing power would be the ability of the cartridge to kill, Stopping power, includes killing power + ability to place bullet in proper place. Sometimes I think too much is written by gunwriters as to larger caliber=larger animal. When the Smith & Wesson .357 magnum was brought out in 1935, One of the Wessons promptly took it around the world and killed all manner of game with it. I believe he collected a brown bear with it as well. He didn't know you had to have a .454 or even a .44 mag. to kill a brown bear, because they hadn't been invented yet.
Like the realtor says, its location,location! and cast bullet shooters who hunt with cast bullets learn quickly there is no substitute for good placement.
I have no doubt a .22 Hornet in the brain will kill the largest bear alive. Eskimos have already proven that. However, when being attacked by a 1200 lb bear, the resulting nervous condition can affect marksmanship