Felix Lube - the Short Version

[utk]

Today I tried another oil with the castor. Same result - separation.
In all my cookings, I have only used the two oils. No soap, sodium stearate or stearic acid.

I have assumed that polymerized means that the oils have merged into one un-separable quantity of oil. Correct?

I find it odd that I have failed with four different oils while others report success.

If you use stearate etc, I can understand that the oils stay together. I've done some experiments with the oils + sodium stearate. Some slight separation after a long time but stearate definitely bind the oils together.

I've also made a few lube batches with different quantities of sodium stearate (not soap) and different mineral oils and they are all dry and nice in their plastic bags. No signs of separation or oil seepage/leakage even after a long time (years).

I placed a couple of small balls of lube from these batces on a piece of paper for a couple of days in the sun, temps approx 130F maximum. There was some bleeding into the paper. A "reference ball" of Calif. Saeco Green bled more and the lube ball was visibly "sweating" in the heat whereas the other lube balls looked dry. (Next time I will use the oven - more controllable).

Do I have good lubes or will they withstand heat even better if I manage the polymerization?
Then - what does it take to reach this illusive goal?

Now, If the oils don't "connect" - could there have been some change in the length of the "chains" or "molecules" of especially the castor after the long cooking time? So that the castor (with the extra help of stearate) now can be contained in the beeswax? This could explain why some report seepage after cooking too little time?

I have always cooked for at least half an hour, often more and the finished lube looked ok. Judging from the last days experiments I have never managed to poly the oils as described though...

[Faret]

I am having the same problems.

Today I tried another oil with the castor. Same result - separation.
In all my cookings, I have only used the two oils. No soap, sodium stearate or stearic acid.

I have assumed that polymerized means that the oils have merged into one un-separable quantity of oil. Correct?

I find it odd that I have failed with four different oils while others report success.

If you use stearate etc, I can understand that the oils stay together. I've done some experiments with the oils + sodium stearate. Some slight separation after a long time but stearate definitely bind the oils together.

I've also made a few lube batches with different quantities of sodium stearate (not soap) and different mineral oils and they are all dry and nice in their plastic bags. No signs of separation or oil seepage/leakage even after a long time (years).

I placed a couple of small balls of lube from these batces on a piece of paper for a couple of days in the sun, temps approx 130F maximum. There was some bleeding into the paper. A "reference ball" of Calif. Saeco Green bled more and the lube ball was visibly "sweating" in the heat whereas the other lube balls looked dry. (Next time I will use the oven - more controllable).

Do I have good lubes or will they withstand heat even better if I manage the polymerization?
Then - what does it take to reach this illusive goal?

Now, If the oils don't "connect" - could there have been some change in the length of the "chains" or "molecules" of especially the castor after the long cooking time? So that the castor (with the extra help of stearate) now can be contained in the beeswax? This could explain why some report seepage after cooking too little time?

I have always cooked for at least half an hour, often more and the finished lube looked ok. Judging from the last days experiments I have never managed to poly the oils as described though...

[geargnasher]

I don't know what you're doing differently than me, but I have never observed separation of the oils on cooling. I don't think it's necessary to get the oils to permanently homogenize, the polymerization takes place on a molecular level and you can't tell by looking if it has happened. Even fully polymerized oils may separate in some instances, I don't know.

The real test is to go ahead and make the lube, then put a block of it on a windowsill in the sun like Felix suggests and see if it starts to sweat little beads of oil out after a couple of hours. If it stays dry on the surface, you have cooked it enough.

Gear

[utk]

I don't know what you're doing differently than me, but I have never observed separation of the oils on cooling. I don't think it's necessary to get the oils to permanently homogenize, the polymerization takes place on a molecular level and you can't tell by looking if it has happened. Even fully polymerized oils may separate in some instances, I don't know.

The real test is to go ahead and make the lube, then put a block of it on a windowsill in the sun like Felix suggests and see if it starts to sweat little beads of oil out after a couple of hours. If it stays dry on the surface, you have cooked it enough.

Gear

Gear, that's exactly what I've done! I put a number of small lube balls on a piece of paper. Behind windows in a closed space where temps occasionally reached some 130F. And for several days.
The lubes were made from different oils (ATF and Liquid Paraffin / Baby Oil) and with different amounts of pure Sodium Stearate.

Around each ball was a small circle of "dampness", slightly larger dia. than the ball. All lube balls were dry in appearance and to the touch.

For the FWFL lubes: is this small seepage normal, is that what you also find?

For the last two days, I also placed a freshly made ball of Wiljen's variety with Stearic Acid + Carnauba instead of Sodium Stearate. It seemed to perform the same as the original lube version. More tests will follow.

I'm now in the process of preparing a new experiment and for this, cooking some new lubes. I was planning an oven experiment trying to keep a constant temp instead of relying on the sun. Also, I would like to see when they start melting.
But my oven doesn't seem able to maintain a constant temp, there seems to be a large hystersis in the thermostat.
So I might just set it for 200F and monitor all lube samples during heating up.

I will scan the flea markets for a small table oven where I can construct my own heat controller and also include a fan to even out temp differences.

Edit: I have removed all results for Calif. Saeco Green because it seems that I used too much STP in that old batch. That might be a contributing factor for seeping more oil than the others.

[geargnasher]

Yikes! Sorry UTK, I forgot that post, it was on the previous page the way I have my settings. My reminder was for Faret, too, though.

I have some of the Felix/Wiljen lube from almost two months ago, I made my usual muffin ingots with it as well as filled the sizer for accuracy testing, and filled my Pyrex measuring cup with it. Nothing is sweating, or has. It's sticky, soft wax, but not even like a potato chip if you leave a blob of it on a napkin for days. By now, it has definitely passed the test.

Gear

[Faret]

Made my batch yesterday and it looks dry like you said gear will give it a try.

[CiDirkona]

I've already ordered some Caranauba Red and BAC for pan lubing, but as I'm a tinkerer and have already compiled a shelf full of lube ingredients, I wouldn't mind trying to make up some of the FWFL. I don't have a lubrisizer, but wouldn't mind adjusting the lube to make it pan lube-able, if possible. I read one post that said FWFL was too soft for pan lubing.

I'd rather not just add paraffin as the concept of adding a petro oil to the otherwise bio oils is working against the concept of the FWFL. Could I just halve the amount of the other lubes and use more beeswax to harden it, or would that reduce the efficacy? Add more soap to harden it?

Thanks!

Thanks!

[geargnasher]

Make a batch per original instructions first and see how you like it. Then, add more beeswax or carnauba flakes to harden if you think it needs it. Depending on how you do it, the original recipe works well following the instructions on Castpics.net.

Gear

[utk]

I've made a heat test chamber from a cardboard box and using a heater fan to blow hot air.
I also made a power controller and first tested out the design on one of my Lee pots (pic 1).

The whole setup with power/temp controller, fan and heat chamber. A piece of glass on top keeps the hot air inside and allows inspection
I have a thermometer with it's probe inside the chamber to monitor the temperature inside the chamber (pic 2).

After two hours at 122F / 50C the lubes looked like this(pic 3).

As seen from the backside, the seepage is more visible (pic 4).

The lubes are:
1. FWFL with Sodium Stearate
2. FWWFL, "Felix-Wiljen World Famous Lube". The Felix recipe modified by Wiljen with Stearic Acid + Carnauba
3. FWWFL, without Carnauba. Slightly softer, which I want to try
4. NRA 50/50 BW/Alox 350 (Actually a little more beeswax than 50% to make it "dryer")
5. California Saeco Green (BW, paraffin and STP)
6. Old NRA lube (BW, paraffin and vaseline)

Now all that remains is to find a suitable box for the electronics. I will try it on my Lee pots also, to see if I can keep the temps more stable. Otherwise I have a PID controller ready to modify for the higher temperatures...

Edit Oct 5:
I have continued the test today and increased the temperature slightly, to 131F / 55C and run it for one hour, see pictures 5 and 6. Note that Calif. Saeco Green has started to melt. Otherwise, only some more seepage from the other lubes can be observed.

[waksupi]

Very interesting comparison! Thanks!

[utk]

Edit Oct 5:
I have continued the test today and increased the temperature slightly, to 131F / 55C and run it for one hour, see pictures 5 and 6. Note that Calif. Saeco Green has started to melt. Otherwise, only some more seepage from the other lubes can be observed.

The new pictures have been added to my original post for easier comparison.

[waksupi]

What this tells me, is the commercial companies are adding more castor oil, or similar, than what the Felix formula calls for. As I remember, the castor oil is the slickum, and you can have a lube that is TOO slick. One that is too slick, in my way of thinking, would give inconsistent velocities.

[fryboy]

i keep thinking that this thread is hardly a "short version" lolz however ..... i keep re-reading it hoping that i'd see magic numbers for a larger recipe ( as opposed to "about 3 1/2 x etc ) anyways i finally got all the stuff to try it now if i can just find wiljen's version as i have the stearic acid ... anyone seen it ? i tried the search for FWWFL but only got 2 hits including this one , if so if you could point me to it i'd appreciate it (thanx)

[utk]

From my own archives:

"WILJEN DIRECTIONS FOR FWFL WITH STEARIC ACID + CARNAUBA INSTEAD OF SODIUM STEARATE:

Here is as complete and documented a procedure for FWFL as I can put together. It is the version I have made and used as well as letting others try and all have reported good success. Hopefully it will work for you as well


2 Tablespoons Mineral Oil (Unscented Baby oil)
1 Tablespoon Castor Oil
¾ Tablespoon Stearic Acid
1 Tablespoon Carnauba wax
1 Tablespoon Anhydrous Lanolin
3 ½ x 3 ½ x 1 inch block of Beeswax

3/4 Tablespoon = 2 1/4 Teaspoons.
3 1/2 x 3 1/2 x 1" beeswax weighs 7 oz

I use a candy thermometer to monitor temp. A mix of Heavy mineral oil laxative and unscented baby oil (light mineral oil) will give off a little smoke beginning about 250 as it cooks off the masking scent, this is acceptable.

Oil should come out a golden color and should not separate upon standing overnight.

I use 1 bottle of mineral oil (16oz) to 2 bottles of Castor Oil (4oz) and mix and cook this in advance as it can be better tested for full polymerization without adding other ingredients and stores well for making small batches later.


Heat mineral oil to the point it begins to smoke then slightly lower the temperature (Should be very near 300F).

Add Castor oil and stir continuously for 1 hour. (Some forms call for 30 minutes, 1 hour at 300 guarantees full polymerization of oils).

(if pre-cooking the oils, and starting from this point, heat oils only to 190F before proceeding)


Slowly add Stearic acid to the mix and stir to dissolve into oils.

Allow mix to cool to roughly 220 before proceeding

Add the Carnauba wax and stir until dissolved.

allow to cool to approx 165F before adding next

Add the beeswax to the mixture and mix well once liquefied.

Remove from heat or lower heat and allow time for mixture to cool, but not set, before adding lanolin.

Adding the lanolin at full heat will scorch it and ruin the lube.

The lube can now be poured into molds or allowed to set as a block and then microwaved (medium heat) to re-melt it for pouring in your lube-sizer.
Felix and I had several discussions before I started using stearic acid instead of Sodium strearate.

The main difference in the two is the melting point of your finished product is slightly lower with stearic acid than with the sodium stearate. The other difference is that is it near impossible to get 100% sodium stearate. The reason Felix used ivory soap at the outset is that it was roughly 70% stearate and getting a more purified form made it prohibitively expensive.

I add a tablespoon of carnauba wax to my mix which has the effect of raising the melting point so it comes out roughly the same as Felix made with Ivory soap and no Carnauba wax."

[fryboy]

From my own archives:

"WILJEN DIRECTIONS FOR FWFL WITH STEARIC ACID + CARNAUBA INSTEAD OF SODIUM STEARATE:

my humble thanx amigo ! i was going to ask him in a pm if no one replied by the weekend but this way everyone gets to see it , btw your fotos and testing looks encouraging !!

[utk]

Some of my own comments:
I was most lucky with pure liquid paraffin as the mineral oil. Baby oil also contains another substance which seems to evaporate during the one-hour cooking time giving a slightly less quantity of the oils.
But, whatever oil I tried, the two oils separated into two distinct layers. The mineral oils I tested besides liquid paraffin were: Castrol ATF, sewing machine oil and a PAO-oil.
So I went back to the liquid paraffin which is also the main ingredient in baby oil.
I never suceeded to "mix" the oils but another forum member suggested that the castor oil had probably polymerized anyway (longer chains). So that left me with nothing else to do but go ahead and hope for the best.

Using stearic acid instead of soap/sodium stearate is nothing new, Felix mentioned this many years ago but pointed out that the melting temperature would be lower (he never said how much, though).

Thanks to Felix and Wiljen, this variety has now finally been tested and Wiljen also added carnauba wax to increase the melting temperature.
But I would like a lube that was as soft as possible and carnauba makes it a little harder. So I also made a batch without carnauba for the heat test.

As you can see, all three varieties of Felix lube seemed to perform equally well, at least up to 131 degrees F and that is good enough for me. Now I can finally fill my lubesizer!
But I will probably continue the experiment to find the limits, temperaturewise (the overtemp relay popped yesterday, just as I was going to increase the temp so I had to make a break).

[fryboy]

first attempt .... oil only ....got the mineral oil smoking hot ( 320-ish ) dropped down to 298 added the castor oil , since i was cooking a larger batch ( 20 oz + 10 oz ) i waited until it came back up to temp before beginning the hour count ( i also stirred and simmered some carne fresca con frijoles at the same time - note to self dont do that again i was starved by the time i got done lolz ) it hovered between 295 and 302 for an entire hour and a half while constantly stirring , i didnt have to let it set over nite , by the time it got to 190-ish i poured it in a large mouth mason jar , 10 minutes later clear and visible separation [sigh] i'll try cooking it again tomorrow nite because the carne fresca came out much much better and i'm so full now i'm sleepy lolz

[geargnasher]

Excellent, UTK, thanks for following up with the melt tests. I use FWWFL for most everything now because it is far more repeatable than using soap. With soap, the solubility seems to change with the weather, sometimes taking one T and sometimes 1/2T, and I think the soap varies greatly as well, after all, it's only soap! I only keep a couple cookies of slightly adjusted versions for pan lubing "special needs" rifle boolits.

Gear

[GabbyM]

first attempt .... oil only ....got the mineral oil smoking hot ( 320-ish ) dropped down to 298 added the castor oil , since i was cooking a larger batch ( 20 oz + 10 oz ) i waited until it came back up to temp before beginning the hour count ( i also stirred and simmered some carne fresca con frijoles at the same time - note to self dont do that again i was starved by the time i got done lolz ) it hovered between 295 and 302 for an entire hour and a half while constantly stirring , i didnt have to let it set over nite , by the time it got to 190-ish i poured it in a large mouth mason jar , 10 minutes later clear and visible separation [sigh] i'll try cooking it again tomorrow nite because the carne fresca came out much much better and i'm so full now i'm sleepy lolz

fryboy:
Sounds to me you're issue may be a mineral oil product that's just hard to work with.
Don't know what you are using. But I tried baby oil of a generic store. Nasty stuff.

If it were me I'd assume the oil would eventually cook down then go for it again. I bought a thermometer with a clip to hold it at edge of pot That made life much easier. With a gas stove and 1 ½ quart pan I have to work the fire off and on for an hour. Tedious but works every time. Just make a full batch to last a year or two.

I'd wish to point out if you've cooked oils at 300F for an hour to end up with separation. Don't blame yourself. You have nasty oil.

[GabbyM]

PS
Bought some heavy mineral oil “intestinal lubricant” that worked well. No smelly scents.
Since then I've bought a gallon jug of white mineral oil from Bitter Creek Candle Supply, Inc.
www.candlesupply.com
They probably have smaller bottles. Mineral oil is also what you work into any food grade wood. Cutting boards, knife handles, wet stones and such. Any mineral oil that is food grade consumable will be of a much more pure stock by default. That's my opinion. I've never lived in a home without mineral oil of food grade. Sort of surprised some people don't . Never used it for laxative. Tend to just eat vegetables. Argh.

Dollar store half pint of intestinal lube worked great. That's a huge amount of oil for bullet lube in a sportsman kit.

Baby oil is extremely variable in structure in my opinion. I'm allergy sensitive so actually can't stand the stuff in the same home I live in. Seriously. There are no scented candles in my house. Since I be a whimpy boy. May have missed out on some perfumed ladies but don't think I missed much

If you have wood cutting boards or wood handle knives food grade mineral oil should be a common household item.