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Thread: Some afterthoughts on bullet lubes

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Some afterthoughts on bullet lubes

    After submitting a post earlier today re: the possibilities of bullets becoming unbalanced due to lube spun off during flight, I began thinking about the experience I mentioned in that post using LAL with excellent accuracy results. The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that film lubes may be the answer to pushing cast bullet accuracy up a notch. .22 rimfire bullets have used film lube for more years than I could even guess. We know LAL is good for at least 1800fps. I believe Ranch Dog uses it on his bullets at over 2000fps. Rooster Jacket is supposed to be good to 1400fps. It would seem that there has to be film lubes that presently exist that will work well on our cast bullets at 2000+fps. Perhaps something used in industry? As I recall, one of the "J" bullet manufacturers began coating one of their premium bullets with a blue colored film lube, several years ago. I also recall reading that it was something used in the auto industry. Is carnauba wax soluble in petroleum solvents or alcohol? If so, maybe this would be a good liquid film lube. Has anyone coated cast bullets with a film of Johnson's Paste Wax? How did they shoot? How fast did you drive them? I think there may be dozens of ideas to pursue in this guest and if experimented with as diligently as recipes/formulas for conventional lubes have been, new discoveries will ensue. For testing criteria, start with a bullet that has proven to be very accurate in a particular rifle driving them at least 2000fps. Cull out those with visible defects and segregate them by weight and when you have a large group of near identical weight, separate them into two equal groups. Size them identically. Lube one group with the lube you have been using, lube the other group with the film lube you are experimenting with. Use identical loading data with each of the bullet groups. Thoroughly clean the rifles barrel before shooting each group of bullets. Try to fire 5-10 fouling shots when beginning to fire each of the two groups of ammo. Repeat this test 4-5 times (a lot of shooting). Be sure to always shoot in identical conditions each time you do test shooting. This could involve a few days or weeks to accomplish. Only after tests like these will you know if you have a lube that is working as well or better than what you have been using. Be sure to share your findings with the rest of us boolit casters.

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  2. #2
    Boolit Master sheepdog's Avatar
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    If you're lube is right its burning off and making a seal long before the boolit leaves the barrel. Its not there to decorate the boolit.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master KYCaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepdog View Post
    If you're lube is right its burning off and making a seal long before the boolit leaves the barrel. Its not there to decorate the boolit.

    Could you please elaborate on that statement. I don't understand how the lube could burn off.

    Jerry

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master fredj338's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYCaster View Post
    Could you please elaborate on that statement. I don't understand how the lube could burn off.

    Jerry
    Best explaination on how bullet lube works I have read:
    http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm

  5. #5
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    Lube burning off? I don't think so.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy mrbill2's Avatar
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    Mine don't burn off. I can prove it, it's stuck to my chronograph.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If all your lube burns off something is wrong and you have leading issues.
    Aim small, miss small!

  8. #8
    Boolit Master dakotashooter2's Avatar
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    If it is spinning off one portion of the boolit why would it not spin off the the rest which is subject to the same forces???


    There is some evidence/ thought out there that bullets leave the barrel with a bit of unstability and gain stability in flight (to a certain extent).

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Slow Elk 45/70's Avatar
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    Burning off lube, well after all this time I am hearing something I never suspected what kind of fire did it start ????,
    Slow Elk 45/70

    Praise the Lord & Pass the Ammo

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Whitespider's Avatar
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    Well, I’m certainly no expert and there are guys here been doing this a lot longer than me, but I can share some observations and research from my own lube making/experimenting. So far, all of my work has been with pistol and revolvers; I’m just starting a rifle project that may create some exceptions to the comments below.

    First, Johnson’s Paste Wax is simply paraffin, softened and thinned with mineral spirits, with a touch of carnauba wax added. Paraffin alone does not make a good boolit lube; possibly the tiny amount of carnauba in JPW is what makes it (more) usable, at least in standard velocity handgun and low velocity rifle loads (I haven’t heard of anyone using it with full-tilt magnum or rifle loads, but I could be wrong). Actually, to me, this just proves that the type, or amount, of lube isn’t important for low velocity/low pressure loads, if the boolit fits the bore.

    I don’t like Lee Liquid Alox when used as a coating lube; it tends to burn (I think) and leave a hard carbon type fouling in the bore. Also, nothing I’ve shot so far has produced its best groups with LLA over the long term; groups generally open up some as the previously mentioned carbon-like fouling builds up. I have found LLA useful as an additive when the lube contains something to keep the fouling soft.

    I’ve gotten my best long term accuracy with a lube that keeps fouling soft so the next boolit fired carries the fouling out with it, something muzzle-loaders have known for years. So far, at least with the handgun loads I’ve worked with, small amounts of vegetable shortening (Crisco) and Ivory soap added to a bees wax based lube have been the best at keeping the bore clean (this may not hold up in rifle loads, yet to be determined). If LLA is added to the lube, slightly more Crisco has been needed to keep things soft, which adds to my suspicions that LLA burns and fouls the bore with a carbon-like stuff.

    Moly, when used as a coating on a cast boolit, hasn’t worked either. With very low velocity loads it does seem to coat the bore so less fouling sticks, but accuracy was horrible. Step the velocity up and leading was the problem. The Moly was also a huge pain to completely clean from the bore. Dry, or film Moly coating may have applications with j-bullets, but is better as a lube additive for cast boolits.

    The way I see it, film lubes/dry lubes can never be the equal of more traditional lubes. Because they can’t act as a sort of “liquid gasket/seal” and also keep fouling soft, they must rely on friction reduction alone. As carbon fouling builds up, the friction reduction becomes increasingly difficult. And if some new miracle film lube completely eliminates friction, accuracy will surely suffer; a certain amount of friction is needed for powder to burn properly. I don’t believe a film lube could ever do all the functions I want a boolit lube to do.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitespider View Post
    Well, I’m certainly no expert and there are guys here been doing this a lot longer than me, but I can share some observations and research from my own lube making/experimenting. So far, all of my work has been with pistol and revolvers; I’m just starting a rifle project that may create some exceptions to the comments below.

    First, Johnson’s Paste Wax is simply paraffin, softened and thinned with mineral spirits, with a touch of carnauba wax added. Paraffin alone does not make a good boolit lube; possibly the tiny amount of carnauba in JPW is what makes it (more) usable, at least in standard velocity handgun and low velocity rifle loads (I haven’t heard of anyone using it with full-tilt magnum or rifle loads, but I could be wrong). Actually, to me, this just proves that the type, or amount, of lube isn’t important for low velocity/low pressure loads, if the boolit fits the bore.

    I don’t like Lee Liquid Alox when used as a coating lube; it tends to burn (I think) and leave a hard carbon type fouling in the bore. Also, nothing I’ve shot so far has produced its best groups with LLA over the long term; groups generally open up some as the previously mentioned carbon-like fouling builds up. I have found LLA useful as an additive when the lube contains something to keep the fouling soft.

    I’ve gotten my best long term accuracy with a lube that keeps fouling soft so the next boolit fired carries the fouling out with it, something muzzle-loaders have known for years. So far, at least with the handgun loads I’ve worked with, small amounts of vegetable shortening (Crisco) and Ivory soap added to a bees wax based lube have been the best at keeping the bore clean (this may not hold up in rifle loads, yet to be determined). If LLA is added to the lube, slightly more Crisco has been needed to keep things soft, which adds to my suspicions that LLA burns and fouls the bore with a carbon-like stuff.

    Moly, when used as a coating on a cast boolit, hasn’t worked either. With very low velocity loads it does seem to coat the bore so less fouling sticks, but accuracy was horrible. Step the velocity up and leading was the problem. The Moly was also a huge pain to completely clean from the bore. Dry, or film Moly coating may have applications with j-bullets, but is better as a lube additive for cast boolits.

    The way I see it, film lubes/dry lubes can never be the equal of more traditional lubes. Because they can’t act as a sort of “liquid gasket/seal” and also keep fouling soft, they must rely on friction reduction alone. As carbon fouling builds up, the friction reduction becomes increasingly difficult. And if some new miracle film lube completely eliminates friction, accuracy will surely suffer; a certain amount of friction is needed for powder to burn properly. I don’t believe a film lube could ever do all the functions I want a boolit lube to do.
    This is very well said and is what I have said for over 56 years when I watched all the smoke on indoor ranges and the terrible leading with .38's. I have always been convinced that Alox left behind in the bore burns when the hot, burning powder and gas touches it. The flash point is way too low.
    Moly coated bullets have been found to contribute to SEE events because of the loss of friction. You do NOT want a lube to reduce friction. So you are right on there.
    I do not believe in a liquid gas seal at all, lube can not seal the gas pressure, only the boolit can. Gas is actually prevented from touching lube IN THE GROOVES and I do not even believe much of it melts except a small amount from bore friction and that is what makes a lube work, coating fouling and the bore with a thin layer. This layer MUST NOT BURN!
    Two things I want from a lube; keep lead from rubbing off and sticking and keep the fouling soft so the next shot shoots it all out. I don't want it to burn and leave ash and I don't want to run out of lube short of the barrel length.
    I have done a lot of work with the .44 TL design boolit from RD. It didn't help the stupid 1 in 38 twist of the Marlin so I tried it in my SBH. Of course I tried LLA and it was not good so I did an extensive test with lubes. The boolit just came alive with Felix rubbed into those little grooves with many 100 yard groups around 1" and fantastic 50 yard groups.
    Just because you have a Lee boolit for tumble lubing, try something else, you might be surprised.
    The problem I see with LLA is the more you add to the boolit, double or triple coating, the more ash is left behind. One coat is not enough to reach the length of the barrel. I will paint rust spots on my old truck with the rest!
    50-50 only relies on the beeswax to soften the burnt Alox. It seems to me you can soften beeswax with a high flash point oil and get better results.
    Now what would work better then Bull plate lube? Speed Green, but I would add some lanolin for sticky. How about Ballistol? Saffron oil?
    And there is good old Felix lube.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    I confess I like Feelix lube best. But having gotten a lot of 50/50 for free I've been pushing through that. Not quite as good but it gets the job done.

    Never had an issue with LLA for handgun or mild rifle loads in shorter barrel weapons. Tried some in a 30" barrel though and it ran out of lube about halfway down. Switching to a TRIPLE coating was enough but at that point, might as well just lube conventionally.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master sheepdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    Lube burning off? I don't think so.
    Not to be a smartarse but as Fredj338 said, read the article:

    "Gas leakage into the lube groove melts the lube, and the liquid lube then gets forced into the microscopic defect channels ahead of the groove..... As pressures/velocities climb into the magnum level (35,000 psi, 1300+ fps), enough hot gases are injected into the lube groove to melt some or all of the hard lube, allowing all of the lube pumping mechanisms outlined above to come into play, resulting in effective lubrication....Lube pumping and high-pressure injection cannot take place efficiently until a hard lube melts. "


    Point of the lube is to make a good seal like pitch between the planks of an old man-o-war (ie if most of you lube is still on the bullet it wasn't lubing or helping the seal ). This is why you get more FPS with lube, not from reduced friction but from a better gas seal.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepdog View Post
    Not to be a smartarse but as Fredj338 said, read the article:

    "Gas leakage into the lube groove melts the lube, and the liquid lube then gets forced into the microscopic defect channels ahead of the groove..... As pressures/velocities climb into the magnum level (35,000 psi, 1300+ fps), enough hot gases are injected into the lube groove to melt some or all of the hard lube, allowing all of the lube pumping mechanisms outlined above to come into play, resulting in effective lubrication....Lube pumping and high-pressure injection cannot take place efficiently until a hard lube melts. "


    Point of the lube is to make a good seal like pitch between the planks of an old man-o-war (ie if most of you lube is still on the bullet it wasn't lubing or helping the seal ). This is why you get more FPS with lube, not from reduced friction but from a better gas seal.
    In order for gas to get into the lube grooves, it has to go past an under size boolit base or cut channels through the lead. Either way it will be seen on recovered boolits as gas cutting and the bore will get leaded badly. This is just another pipe dream about gas leakage that you DO NOT WANT.
    The only LUBE PUMP you want is from a shortening of the boolit under pressure and from centrifugal force of a spinning boolit.
    PLEASE KEEP GAS LEAKAGE AWAY FROM MY BOOLITS.
    Do you believe everything you read?

  15. #15
    Boolit Master sheepdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44man View Post
    Do you believe everything you read?
    No but I'd say Glen Fryxell is usually pretty spot on. Should I give you more credibility than him?
    If what you're saying is true why have lube grooves? Cause the lube is flush with the boolit, it would make so little contact and for so short a time it would be pointless. I bet if you filled your lube grooves with rubber O rings (high friction but better seal) you'd probably see better fps. Think this is why commercial casts have gummy lube that sticks out past the boolit diameter, to help make up for the fact they have to be really loose fits for tight barrels.
    Last edited by sheepdog; 05-19-2009 at 02:58 PM. Reason: spelling

  16. #16
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    glenn is usually close.
    see 44 mans post above,he and i don't agree on lube for certain reasons as he shoots mostly h/v revolver and i shoot mainly rifle.
    however i do shoot magnum handguns 375,445 supermags and my 450 express mag.
    i follow what he says for them cause i am lazy in the revolver area :] sorta.
    however we do agree on how lube functions, and the results of it not doing it's job, while in the bbl.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I have done a little bit of experimenting with grooveless cast bullets for rifle. (They are heavier for length and are fat enough to fit the throat of a Lee Enfield) The objective was to make a push out mould and use the same mould as a sizer die - which works and gives a hollow point. (It's too slow so I don't do it).

    This is what my latest boolits look like straight out the mould.



    The loaded and lubed round.



    The lube star.



    Recovered boolits.



    The test target.



    The load was 35.5gr Varget/AR2208 under a 225gr g/c boolit. Someone estimated the velocity at around 1900fps - maybe less.

    And the rifle.

    Last edited by 303Guy; 05-20-2009 at 05:05 PM.
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master at Heaven's Range 2010

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    ???????????

    the trouble is to much thinking,and not enuf actual lab experiance.most lubes were beeswax and parafin and grease.I have used toilet bowl rings,parafin
    ,beeswax,johnsons wax for saws.they all worked.pistol bullets seldom lose lube.
    Lees lube on the 312-160TL with 13 gr red dot 30/06 at 100 yds will group in 1".
    WILDCATT

  19. #19
    Boolit Master BABore's Avatar
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    I've been working on several variations of a liquid lube in an attempt to duplicate the Hornady 358, 158 gr swaged SWC. This boolit, out of my S&W 686, 8 3/8, is one of the most accurate plinkers I've found when loaded over 5.0 to 5.5 grains of WW 231.

    I really don't like the Lee mule snot much as regular lubes have always been more accurate for me. For off-the-shelf stuff I've tried some of the various bicycle chain lubes. White Lightning lube is similar to Rooster jacket lube and works pretty well. Lately I've been using BW-408 Microcrystalline wax as a base.

    http://www.blendedwaxes.com/blendedw...ne/default.asp

    Microwax has a decent oil content and will handle additional oils. It makes a really good lube all by itself. I melt it in a pan, then add mineral spirits to it to keep it liquid. When dry, it's still a little tacky, but so is the raw wax. I've experimented with additions of Alox to come up with a liquid 50/50 of sorts. My latest batch was made up of 2 ounces of micro wax, 1/4 ounce of carnuba wax flakes, and 5 ounces of mineral spirits. The waxes were melted and the mineral spirits was added with the flame off. The viscosity is similar to cutting a bottle of mule snot, 50/50 with MS. I just double coated a batch of boolits to try out this weekend. Drying time is similar to LMS. It's pretty firm and way less sticky. I gave everything a tumble in motor mica afterwards. This is pretty much my final version. Previous batches have shown outstanding accuracy and I hope this is the final tweak. I may try just a touch more caranuba so I can eliminate the motor mica.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check