To patch, or not to patch...

[geargnasher]

Hi everyone I've been casting and shooting for years but know zilch about paper-patching. I want to start casting for my much-loved 6.5 X 55 Swedish Mausers (3) but have always been scared to due to the super-fast rifling twist (have had them strip 120grain jacketed spitzers with anything beyond listed starting loads, have to load at least 140 gr. to get enough length). I was wondering if you paper-patching folks could save me a bunch of time and give me the short version to some questions:

1) Would patching help boolits keep from stripping the engraving better than regular cast? (Seems that groovless boolits would engage more rifling plus the paper might make the boolit surface harder, am I right?)

2) Could I shoot paper-patched boolits as fast as gas-checked boolits without having to mess with checks?

3) Would the advantages (if any) of patching be worth the learning curve versus just hunting down and buying a regular mould and going with what I know? I know that is a subjective question, but I'm just trolling for opinions.

Any input would be appreciated.

Gear

[docone31]

Gear,
From my experience, and in order of your questions, which are quite valid,
1 Most likely, to probably,
2 Definately, I do not use gas checks on my paper patching.
3 Absolutely! I wonder why more folks do not do it.
I am firing full tilt paper patched .30cal loads, in both .308, and 30-06. They perform better than jacketeds.

[pdawg_shooter]

+1 on what doc said. Paper will out perform naked lead every time. With paper the is no leading, great accuracy and with the right alloy, no velocity limit!

[303Guy]

3 Absolutely! I wonder why more folks do not do it.

I can answer that one (I think). Ignorance! I have just started and a few days ago, before I saw the light, I had no idea how to do it but had thought about it for years! I am still in very early days and haven't even range tested any of my experimental loads but so far, it looks like a heap of fun! (I have fired them into my 'test tube'). If I can, I will stop using the J-word bullets altogether! Well, in my 303 Brits, anyway. I'm just short of a push through sizer die at the moment so I'm playing around with alternatives.

[geargnasher]

Ok, I'll have to dive into this one, looks like a fun can-'o-worms to open up!
Thanks for the input.

Gear

[pdawg_shooter]

If I can help in any way e-mail me pdawg.shooter@gmail.com.

[Old Ironsights]

I can answer that one (I think). Ignorance! I have just started and a few days ago, before I saw the light, I had no idea how to do it but had thought about it for years! I am still in very early days and haven't even range tested any of my experimental loads but so far, it looks like a heap of fun! (I have fired them into my 'test tube'). If I can, I will stop using the J-word bullets altogether! Well, in my 303 Brits, anyway. I'm just short of a push through sizer die at the moment so I'm playing around with alternatives.

I don't because it seems silly to try to pp pistol boolits... is it?

[303Guy]

Well, I never had a need to do anything differently in my pistols. My 44 mag worked just fine with all kinds od strange lead alloys, even a hard (and good looking) alloy I used until I discoverd it was too hard and was actually flame cutting. The best alloy I had was from the bottom of a furnace hearth. Ugly in appearance but shot well. In all that, I never had any leading with that gun. My 9mm on the other hand ..... but it was easy to clean. To be honest, I would hesitate to patch bulk bullets like for the 9mm but the 44 - yes if accuracy would improve. But remember that I haven't mastered PP'ing yet - I'm still having fun trying to get it right!

[pdawg_shooter]

I have patched hand gun ammo, just to see if it worked. I don't do it regularly just because there is no advantage to it. Lubed lead works just fine.

[Old Ironsights]

I have patched hand gun ammo, just to see if it worked. I don't do it regularly just because there is no advantage to it. Lubed lead works just fine.

I was thinking more about for Rifle loads in the 1800FPS+ range... or faster for a 156gr...

It would seem that a pistol bullet would just be too short to pp well, but I wouldn't know.

[303Guy]

It would seem that a pistol bullet would just be too short to pp well ....

I was playing around with some 90gr 32 pistol bullets. They patch just fine! It's actually easier than a longer rifle bullet. I would be interested in your results if you try it.

[pdawg_shooter]

No problem patching them and if you are going for 1800 in a rifle they will work great. I don't have any pistol caliber rifles so never played with them that way.

[yeahbub]

Gear, I presume you already have a 6.5 mold and will be using it to cast for PP boolits for the Swede. I cast full-size for various .30's, patch and size down to throat diameter and they give good results, but I thought I'd mention that a .257 mold would provide you with a casting that's just right to patch up to .266 or so without having to resort to the expense of a special PP mold for the 6.5. Just my $.02.

[geargnasher]

Gear, I presume you already have a 6.5 mold and will be using it to cast for PP boolits for the Swede. I cast full-size for various .30's, patch and size down to throat diameter and they give good results, but I thought I'd mention that a .257 mold would provide you with a casting that's just right to patch up to .266 or so without having to resort to the expense of a special PP mold for the 6.5. Just my $.02.

See, that's why I'm asking! I know beans about pp. I just aquired a 266673 150-grain Lyman mould and figured it would work either way. What about cig paper?

And I'm still unclear, you size to BORE (not GROOVE) diameter, patch, then resize to .001" or so over BORE? This doen't compute. I'm confused by some of the other threads, not sure guys are using the terms correctly. I want all my boolits to be just over GROOVE diameter so they SEAL in the barrel with no gas leakage. And I assure you my lands are taller than .001", and I would think sizing way under, patching, and resizing to just over groove would be the ticket. Am I wrong?

Gear

[docone31]

You cast a bore rider, down size, then wrap with notebook paper, computer printer paper, anything of that size. Wrap twice, then size to .001-.002 over groove.
Use JPW, or Car Wax for final sizeing. The die will wipe off the excess. Too much wax, and it makes the paper weak during sizeing.

[303Guy]

What about cig paper?

I have not had any success with cig paper so far. It is also very fragile so would not be suitable for magazine use or carrying in ones pocket.

[45 2.1]

You want your patched diameter to be 0.0005" under the throat diameter and the patched boolit needs to engrave into the rifling origin slightly, no jumps allowed if you want it to shoot. Just how you get that diameter depends on what paper and mold you pick. Measure things and pick the appropriate stuff. Paper with 25% rag content works very well. Mic you paper thicknes, multiply times four (for two wraps) and subtract about 0.001" to get diameter increase over you naked boolit size. For very thin patches, tracing paper works pretty well.

[geargnasher]

Ok, pretty clear so far. My experience with j-words in both of my Karlinas is that in order to seat to engage the rifling ever-so-slightly the cartridges were about 3/8" to long for the magazine. I used no crimp and single fed them anyway, so not really a problem there, but this brings up the point of how in heck does one wrap a patch around a silhouette boolit and still get the patch to extend far enough up the boolit to engage the rifling without wrinkling or coming unwound? I guess it really isn't possible for the 266673, but I'm wondering if the bare undersized nose of the boolit will shave lead if not patched too. Maybe a coat of LLA on the whole boolit after the patch has dried, before final sizing? Or should I try a boolit with consistent diameter?

Gear

[docone31]

Just my 2C.
I would wrap the castings. You want the final size to be at least .001 over groove. I would then load them to factory OAL specs.
That will give you a good starting point.
IF, the groups are wide, either add a third wrap, and size to .0015 over groove, or final size the double wrap to that size. If the group tightens up, but is not what you are looking for, dab some lapping compound on the paper. Wipe off the excess. If that really tightens up the group, add .0005 to the final size.
I am not sure why, but, when I size the "prime" casting, the casting fresh out of the mold, then wrap, then size, I get better groups then even if I wrap the same final diameter without first sizeing it.
I could be work softening the casting. I water cool all my castings. I use wheel weights with a touch of zinc.
In your caliber, I would first size the "prime" to 6.5.
Example, for my .30s.
I size them to .308, then two wraps of printer paper, then size to .309.
I set my OAL to factory specs for length. I take a factory load, set the seating die to it. From there, I load my patched loads. I use collet dies, and occasionally the LEE FCD for that caliber.
That would be your baseline. From there, your particular rifle will let you know what it needs.
In the case of my .30s, setting to factory OAL is the winner. Same with my Enfields.
You might start there.
Paper is noncompressible. Copper in a jacket does compress slightly when fired. Paper remains "solid". However, the lead moves around to fill the bore. When you recover the fired patch pieces, you will feel a difference between prefired and fired. The fired is harder although still flexible. It will just feel a little different.
I was lucky. My patched calibers took off the shelf sizeing dies. You might have to fiddle a bit.
However, the 6.5 should make a great patched load! When loading these, think standard jacketed loads. I use the minimum jacketed charge for the patched weight. I go by the mold specs rather than measured casting weight.
That is what works for me. It is fairly simple. With the smaller castings you are attempting, I would really consider a cigarette roller. It make a real tight wrap.
I would cut the width of the strips 1" X the roll X 2. Lay the patch on the apron of the roller, tip of the patch towards the tip. Lay the casting on the strip, close the apron and roll. Let the strip be soaking, the roller will make it come out damp. Twist the tail, and let dry.
Even with the longer castings, You should have enough to twist a tail, and have the front of the patch over where the casting begins the taper to the nose of the boolitt. That is where I put my patches.
Works for me.

[303Guy]

... how in heck does one wrap a patch around a silhouette boolit and still get the patch to extend far enough up the boolit to engage the rifling without wrinkling or coming unwound?

Having played around some and having had a few failures, I am thinking that is the real purpose of the angled patch. Wrap it so the trailing edge is held in the neck and it won't unravel on chambering.



That's just a 'demo' pic - there is no tail skirt shown.