Black Powder 30/30 Question

[azcoyhunter]

Shooters


Can I shoot my Marlin Lever action with Black Powder?

I have never used Black Powder, so I do not know anything!!

Do I have to use gas checks?

What powder, can I use the same primers?

What grain bullet do you recommend?

As you can see, I am all ears.


Thanks

Clint

[9.3X62AL]

The 30-30 WCF was specifically designed to use the then-new smokeless powder, so was not factory-loaded with The Holy Black. The 32 Winchester Special--it's slightly fatter-bored cousin--was set up so that once the smokeless factory loads were fired, the spent cases could be loaded with black powder if the operator so desired. the 32 Winchester Special had a 1-16" twist to allegedly work better with black powder fouling than the 30-30's 1-12" pitch. I can only imagine what black powder fouling would do to Microgroove rifling.

I'm sure someone has tried black powder in the 30-30, maybe even someone who posts here--what says y'all? My black powder cartridge work has been limited to the 45-70, which was a rousing success--and the 44-40, which was not so great.

[Dale53]

Understand that while I have extensive BPCR experience I have NOT shot the 30/30 with black powder.
Yes, you can do it but I wonder why? (just curious). Using Goex 3f or 2f you can fill the case, and compress up to .300" then seat the bullet. I would use the standard bullet weight (150-170 grs). You would NOT need to use gas checks. A .060" wad might be nice. I would use a LDPE wad of this thickness. The 30/30 neck is long enough to do well with BP, I would think.

It is extremely important to use a proper BP lubricant. The standard is SPG. I use Emmert's Home Mix (50% natural beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Canola Oil). I have lately been using 5% Anhydrous Lanolin and 5% Canola Oil instead of 10% Canola.

Standard primers will be just fine.

A cast bullet of 25/1 (lead /tin) will be about optimum alloy for BP.

Good luck!
Dale53

[omgb]

BP is not going to push that slug more than maybe 1100 fps at best. There's just not enough room for powder in that case. Another hassle is going to be the clean up. The action mechanism is not going to make the job easy. If you wanted to, Triple 7 from Hodgdon would give better velocity and eliminate the fouling problem you will have after just two or three rounds with BP. Of course, just using smokeless would be a whole lot easier and a whole lot more satifying in the 30-30. BP is great stuff in the guns designed to exploit its better points. The 30-30 is not one of these. It would be safe and it would work, but not very well.

[KCSO]

NO

If you clean between every shot and load a slightly compressed load of FFg you can get a pattern of about 2" at 50 yards. My smokless loads run under an inch at the same range. If you try to shoot 3 without claeaning the bullets go sideways. It really isn't practical.

[wills]

That’s kind of like the age old question “Can I hunt Grizzly Bears with a fly rod?” Yes you can, but you might be less than entirely pleased with the results.

You might be happier if you get a caliber and rifle intended for black, 40-65, .45-70, .45-90, 38-55 come to mind.

[azcoyhunter]

Another dumb question

Where could a guy that has limited funds find a rifle such as a .45-70

I have alwas wanted to shoot black powder.

Clint

[omgb]

Limited funds? That depends on how limited. An H&R or NEF Handi Rifle can be had used in 45-70 for around $200 if one looks enough. Likewise 38-55. Anything else is going to start costing some much bigger money. You might find a Ruger single shot for around $600 used and a Pedersoli Rolling Block used will run around $700. Any of the Sharps replicas that are worth owning, ie. Pedersoli, C Sharps or Shiloh are going to start around $1200 and run upwards of $3,500. I think and H&R Trapdoor replica runs around $800 or so. So like I said, what's limited all depends on the individual. Wish I could be more specific but that's the best i can do with what you have given me.

[9.3X62AL]

AZ--

By "shooting black powder", do you mean black powder cartridge rifles, muzzle loaders, or ? There are a large number of VERY knowledgeable sources here on both venues, so speak right up.

As OMGB has alluded to, to a large degree you get what you pay for--although the NEF/H&R Handi-Rifles are a stone bargain, considering what you get for the price paid. My Ruger #1 is sort of a mid-point price-wise between the H&R and the Sharps repros. I've used The Holy Black in the #1 and got fine accuracy, but the clean-up required after shooting THB is not an "option"--it is a REQUIREMENT, or ruined bores and cartridge cases are assured. The work involved is not extensive or laborious, but it must be done.

[jh45gun]

The NEF Handi rifle in 45/70 is a bargain I had one and liked it. The only reason I got rid of it was when I built my Rolling block in 45/70 I felt I would never shoot the handi rifle that much because I like the Roller so much. Price on this is about 700 bucks by the time I got done so even that is not a cheap way to go. The NEF would be your best bet.

[Dale53]

I recently (November) purchased a Ruger #3 for $350 in 45/70 on one of my regular forums. I actually knew the fellow that had it for sale. It is about 95% and perfect inside. Really excellent buy for a terrific rifle. Maybe one of the all time great rifles to carry a lot hunting and shoot just a little (it only weighs about 6-6.5 lbs and with the loads that this rifle will handle, will really make you sit up and take notice).

The buys are out there, you just have to pay attention and be ready to JUMP.

Dale53

[wills]

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/al1674.htm

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/al1696.htm

[azcoyhunter]

Wow

Thanks to all, very generous info giving!!!

What I want "NEED" is a Black Powder Cartridge rifle. S.O. says do not NEED but what does she know?? A man's need is a man's need!

I do not know anything about them, Is there a good book that you would recommend?

I want to know more, and I find it really interesting!!!

Another Question???

Is there such thing as a "Kit" Black Powder Cartridge rifle, I think that would be the best of both worlds.
Clint

[jh45gun]

Not that I know of but then a NEF is priced complete for about the same amount of money or less even of most muzzle loader kits. it is a good deal for the cash.

[azcoyhunter]

Just ordered a catalog from NEF

Thanks again for all the info.

Clint

[versifier]

Clint,
There are some serious quality issues with the current NEF's, though the barrels are very accurate. As long as you are shooting low pressure loads, you may not have a problem, but then again you may. Look over my postings on them here and on the Reloders Guide forum. Many members here are happy with theirs, but many (including me) have had some real problems with them loosening up with regular use. I have heard horror stories from former employees that leave me seriously concerned about their current quality. They are inexpensive, but you get what you pay for. If I wanted a single shot, I'd save up and buy a T/C Encore.

[wills]

Perhaps it would be more articulate if someone asked what you intend to do with the rifle: plink, hunt, sanctioned BPCR silhouette, mid-range or Creedmore matches?

Try a Google search for BPCR or for BPCRS. Also, if you can find a match you can attend, go, talk to the shooters. Even if you are not looking for a competition rifle the shooters may have or know of something that would interest you.

[w30wcf]

Well, there are better calibers for black powder, but with the right components (critical) it can be made to work as reloaders of the late 1800's early 1900's have found.

Interestingly, Marlin's 1897 catalog does indicate that in addition to reloading with smokeless powder, blackpowder could be used in the .30-30.

HOWEVER, blackpowder back in the late 1890's was highly refined, designed to burn with a moist and minimum residuum resulting in minimal fouling. Current b.p.'smanufactured in the U.S. do not have these attributes. Swiss b.p. is the powder of choice to closely replicate those b.p.'s of a bi gone era.

Early .30-30 cast bullet designs illustrated in the same 1897 catalog were multi grooved to hold a lot of lube, similar to the Loverin style bullets introduced in the 1950's. I have used the 150 gr. Loverin and an LBT 160 gr. bullet for b.p. loads in my .30-30's. Both hold more than enough SPG b.p. lubricant.

With 44 grs. of Swiss 3F, I have achieved 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards. Groups with smokeless powder run about 1/2 of that. Velocity with this load actually reaches 1,600 f.p.s. making it an "Express" cartridge by 1890's definition. I have fired upwards of 15 shots in a row with no accuracy deterioration using Swiss b.p.

Have fun!

w30wcf

[floodgate]

A reprint of a Savage 1903 catalog lists Savage headstamped ("S. A. .303") .303 Savage cartridges with the standard nickel jacketed 180-gr.(?) soft-point bullets, loaded with 40 grs. of Black Powder. (Velocity and actual bullet weight are not stated.) They also loaded .30&30's, but not with BP. Since the .303 and .30&30 are similar in case capacity and performance, this suggests such loadings are possible and practical. I'm tempted to try a few in my Model 99 lightweight.

floodgate

[azcoyhunter]

Shooters

Thanks for al the info.

Mostly what I want to shoot is targets till I get good enough, then hunt with it, If I ever get lucky enough to get drawn, for deer.

Clint