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Thread: Blue Dot & reduced loads for .308?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Blue Dot & reduced loads for .308?

    Looking for some blue dot CB loads for 160gr .308 (7.62x51 Military cases). I've also seen lots of references to Blue Dot in .30-06, has anyone tried Blued Dot in .25-06 (jacketed)?

    Also interested in possibly using Unique & Bullseye for the .308 CB loads.
    Last edited by ChrisK; 04-29-2009 at 02:54 AM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    Go to the Accurate Arms site and look up Seafire (avatar is a Sea Fury). He's developed lots of loads in lots of cartridges using Blue Dot.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    Go to the Accurate Arms site and look up Seafire (avatar is a Sea Fury). He's developed lots of loads in lots of cartridges using Blue Dot.
    Thanks, I've seen several other links that point there as well. I signed up yesterday, but I cannot search the forum (it tells me that my status in pending approval, whatever that means). Just curious if anyone here has tried some loads (Blue Dot, Bullseye & Unique) and what there experiences were w/ accuracy.

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    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    Some of my Blue Dot Experience

    I use it quite a bit in the Krag. I had a lb I been moving around with me for 10 years, discovered Seafires info and gave it a try. Here's a pic of a 1250fps load with a Belding & Mull 311169. 12.5gr of BD with a Remington 9 1/2M primer. The magnum primer is what really made it work. 5 shots at 85 yds, 3 in a cloverleaf, 2 touching less than an inch away. I'd been having trouble with it, was getting some good sub groups with way too many flyers messing them up. The .308 has roughly the same capacity as the 30/40. Blue Dot is only a little faster than 2400, there's plenty of data for it here on this site. Here's seafire's method for working up a load with BD:

    Well I know this seafire character pretty well...

    His formula was to fill a case until it overflowed...

    Then level it off even with the rim of the cartridge, and then weigh the amount of Blue Dot for a full case...

    20% of that figure is the recommended Minimum load...

    30% is a good starting point to work up loads..

    40% of that figure is a good point to proceed slower...

    This is where it gets important....

    50% of that figure should be in the neighborhood of Max, if the case is based on a 30/06 case....

    work up slowly and in small increments above 50% of max in magnum cases, 308 and 7 x 57 based cases...

    Max will be near 60% of full capacity in most cartridges depending upon bullet weight...( except 30/06 based cases.. IE.. 25/06, 270, 280, 30/06, 338/06, 35 Whelen)

    Large Rifle primers are recommended, even in Magnum cases...

    Blue Dot is not position sensitive in rifle cases, even with only 20% of max as a charge...

    NO FILLER is recommended, as it will actually increase pressures....

    Do NOT consider Blue Dot for maximizing velocity potential of a rifle case..
    Consider it for accuracy and reduced velocity loads... at 40 to 50% you are not shooting reduced pressure loads.. just reduced velocity loads...

    The mildest of magnum primers is what it took to make it work right for me, and I've had forum members here tell me it is position sensitive. I haven't tried tipping it either way, just let it lay in the case.
    Last edited by madsenshooter; 09-08-2010 at 10:15 PM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    ChrisK, While I haven't tried most of Seafire's loads, I have indeed used Blue Dot and Hodgdon's Clays with the plain-based group buy 30-150-TL bullet in my .30-06. (Mine actually weigh 139grs.). The loads I used were 9grs. - 10grs. Blue Dot or 6grs. - 7grs. Clays, which you can adjust for the .308Win. Btw, Unique works just as well with that CB with charges of 8grs. - 9grs. Accuracy with all powders was very good to excellent using LR primers.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Rocky Raab's Avatar
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    I also write about and use Blue Dot for reduced loads. I wholeheartedly agree with Seafire's methods AND his warnings.

    Emphasis reiterated: these are NOT low-pressure loads. They approach normal maximum pressures for a given cartridge. Muzzle velocity is reduced because these loads develop less gas VOLUME, but at normal peak pressures.

    I don't worry about powder position, as I reason that normal recoil and gun cycling will shake a powder charge to even distribution in the case. Unless you are shooting at your toes, bullet velocity will be quite consistent. (If you ARE shooting at your toes, high velocity isn't required!).Primer blast isn't a spark, either. It's a potent blast that almost certainly has a "leafblower" effect inside the case - especially with a fluffy flake powder like BD.
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  7. #7
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    If you ARE shooting at your toes, high velocity isn't required!).
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  8. #8
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    Talking to the Hodgdon powder tech the other day we discussed Bluedot in cast rifle loads. Unlike Ben at Alliant, who doesn't want to see it used in that application, Mike at Hodgdon says he can agree to use it, BUT make sure there is a firm crimp. His reason for this is he feels that the primer can go off popping the bullet into the bore, then the powder ignites. We know what could happen then, as the bullet is a bore obstruction.

    Joe

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    I know this isnt what you are looking for but looking at a new IMR/Hodgon/Winchester Basic Reloading Manual, they list Trail Boss load for the 25-06.

    100gr Nosler Partition
    Trail Boss 19.2gr 1712FPS 30,600 PSI
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master Rocky Raab's Avatar
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    Mike at Hodgdon is correct about the ills of having the primer dislodge the bullet prematurely, but I wonder why he brought it up specifically to do with Blue Dot? Surely if it happens before the powder can ignite, the type of powder that happens to be there is immaterial, right?
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master jimkim's Avatar
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    At one time Alliant had 30-30 Blue Dot data on their website. They took it off last year when they updated. I talked to a tech at Alliant who denied they ever had it listed. After four emails he finally sent me this.

    You know Jim…you were right about the Blue Dot data! Sorry for my oversight. I got out our old reloading guide and looked in the silhouette section and found a cast bullet load (152 gr cast) with Blue Dot (13 grs). Wow…I am in these reloading guides everyday and missed that one. I guess the inquiries are not sending me to the silhouette section often enough.



    My hat is off to you on this one…you got me!
    I sent in very high praises to Alliant in regards to their customer service reps. It takes a big man and good company to admit when they are wrong. Kudo's. Sorry about the hijack. My guess would be since 13.0gr works in a 30-30 it ought to work in any of the larger capacity higher pressure cartridges.

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  12. #12
    Boolit Master jimkim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
    Looking for some blue dot CB loads for 160gr .308 (7.62x51 Military cases). I've also seen lots of references to Blue Dot in .30-06, has anyone tried Blued Dot in .25-06 (jacketed)?

    Also interested in possibly using Unique & Bullseye for the .308 CB loads.
    You might be able to use this. http://www.gmdr.com/lever/addata.htm

    US Govt mantra. if it's moving tax it, if it's still moving regulate it, if it stops moving subsidize it

  13. #13
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    [quote=Rocky Raab;558669]Mike at Hodgdon is correct about the ills of having the primer dislodge the bullet prematurely, but I wonder why he brought it up specifically to do with Blue Dot? Surely if it happens before the powder can ignite, the type of powder that happens to be there is immaterial, right?[/quot

    I was discussing that Weatherby mag blow where the fellow was using a reduced charge of Blue Dot and blew the rifle up. That's how we got on the subject of another companies powder.

    Joe

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    Wow, lots of good information here (and quick). I was finally approved on the accurate reloading forum and there is lots of good info there as well. My main goals are accuracy and being able to shoot more (paper) with less wear and tear on the barrel. I have a few pounds of blue dot and a couple thousand cast bullets so I felt it would be a good combo. As long as it's accurate, I'll be a happy camper.

    Trail boss sounds interesting, but I was under the impression that it was for straight walled cases. Have you tried this load? How was the accuracy? I have about half a lb laying around, that I may experiment some more with.

    Thanks for the warning on the crimp. Some of my guns I plan on playing around with are semi's (I'm not expecting the gun to cycle, my range is single shot only) and I can the issue with a loose bullet and the inertia.

    Damn there are so many variables and so little time. I'd love to try Clays as well. I guess I'll start with Blue dot and see how that goes and possibly move on to other powders as my supply dwindles or the accuracy isn't what I want.

    Thanks everyone, appreciate it.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I went to the Accurate arms site and couldn't find anything with seafire on it.
    Is it a fourm?????
    Can someone post a link???

  16. #16
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    I believe Seafire is his username try doing a search by username

  17. #17
    Boolit Master Rocky Raab's Avatar
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    Joe, what I meant was why Mike at Hodgdon seemingly implied that ONLY BlueDot requires a firm crimp. My point is that a primer can move a bullet before ANY powder can ignite, not just BlueDot.

    In fact, it is much less likely with BD than with many other powders, because BD is a very easy-to-ignite flake powder. While a healthy amount of bullet pull is always a good thing, BD does not require a crimp for good ignition, in my experience. Applying one doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help much with BD and it certainly is not mandatory.

    Finally, if you want to read Seafire's stuff, he posts under that screen name at 24 Hour Campfire
    Please visit my shooting articles at www.reloadingroom.com and my Vietnam novels at www.rockyraab.com (Do use Firefox, NOT Internet Exploder)

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Ricochet's Avatar
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    Smile

    Accurate Arms isn't the site where Seafire is. It's the accuratereloading.com forum.
    "A cheerful heart is good medicine."

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
    Accurate Arms isn't the site where Seafire is. It's the accuratereloading.com forum.
    Here's a link for you

    http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    Ricochet, Oops! Thanks for reminding me of the forum's correct name: I haven't been there for awhile and quickly forgot it's name.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check