Another HP Interest/Design Thread: .44 Special 180-200 grain SWCHP

[azrednek]

Is Miha going to build it with both plain and gas check base? Being that we have some time I may be in for one of each.

[Dutch4122]

Can't resist anymore. Gotta have this one, too. You guys are coming up with good ideas faster than I can make the money!

[Kuato]

Guys, what ever happened to this GB? Did it die off or what? I seen other GB go active that came up after this one. Whats the deal?

[only1asterisk]

Waiting on MiHec. When he's ready to take money he'll let us know.

This stands to be one of the more group buys. It isn't going to die.

[Triggerhappy]

OK, I'm probably in for one of these. Depends on what other .44 molds I end up with between now and what this comes up.

TH

[Kuato]

Startin to feel like a LEE GB wait.....

[only1asterisk]

Startin to feel like a LEE GB wait.....

It has only been about 4 months since the design was finalized. If this was a Lee buy we'd only be a month or two into the wait. My current (and last) buy is going into it's 14th month since the order was sent in.

[Dutch4122]

Only1* is right. The last, and I do mean last, Group Buy I Honcho'd through Lee Precision took a little over a year to receive the molds.

The good news here is that Mihec apparently is getting his own dedicated machine. So, this kind of wait will soon be a thing of the past.

[archmaker]

Had some spare time.

Put this together, because I am never sure if I am on this group buy or another.

I have been what I call conservative of those who said they want this.

Checked on Mihec website and we are still listed, however there is not a link to this one, FWIW.

kbstenberg
ddeaton
square butte
KSCowboy
happy7
wdr2
mroliver77
Kuato
C1PNR
practical_man
ddixie884
archmaker
SuperMag
Thumbcocker
stephen
heat-round
BrettT/C
GLL
foxtrotter
Bigscot
denul
Gunsmoke
captaint
Dutch4122
Triggerhappy

[kbstenberg]

So are we going with post #13? I am so confused

[Triggerhappy]

I'm more inclined to like the post 108 design.

[Cord]

Please - add me to the list of those wanting a
MiHec .432 / 179gr SWCHP (210gr as solid) brass Cramer style double cavity.
This is the second of the two drawings in post #13.

A set of the 5-sided pins as are being discussed on the HG #503 HP
Group Buy thread would be VERY DESIRABLE also.

If you all don’t mind me saying so, the only improvement would be to make
the forward driving band the same width as the middle and base bands,
instead of the .070- .077 -.080 pictured. Simply average it out equally.

On the HG #503 clone they are all equal at .100 and that is the way Mr. Elmer Keith
wanted them to be- equal -and in fact he was very adamant about it!
Equal width driving bands are one of the hallmarks of a true “Keith Style” boolit.

This is referenced by Glen Fryxell, and best explained in “Sixguns” by Mr. Keith.
If the forward driving band is narrow it will skid and smear before it picks up the
rifling to a greater degree than a heavier band will.

[stephen]

I second Cord's comments/suggestions about the driving bands.

[GLL]

Although the base band is wider the front and middle bands seem to be the same to me.

Jerry

[Cord]

Yes, I am guilty of mixing the specs from the two boolits in post #13.
The measurements are only on the first drawing, but they otherwise look similar.

Here are quotes from Mr. Elmer Keith’s “Sixguns” (1961 edition)

From page 231:
“Anyone who will take the time to recover his fired revolver bullets from snow, oiled sawdust, cotton waste or similar mediums which do not mutilate them ,will immediately see that the greatest strains on the bearing bands of a sixgun bullet come on the front band…”

“The bullet, traveling at high speed as it leaves the cylinder, jumps straight ahead into the barrel throat proper. There it skids about until it is gripped by the lands and forced to rotate through the bore by them.”

“The grooves left on it by the lands are generally always twice as wide as normal, showing clearly that the bullet does strip this band a bit before enough of its bearing surface has entered the barrel to hold it securely to the lands.”

“By having a wide, groove diameter front band located in front of the crimp groove, we can cut this stripping and skidding to a minimum.”

From page 229:
(RE: the design of 429421)
“I wanted this new bullet to seat as far out of the case as the cylinder would permit……but I also wanted a wide, heavy band in front of the crimp groove to help true up the cartridge in the cylinder and so keep the bullet in perfect alignment with the bore while firing.”

[Cord]

Now, that was Mr. Keith talking, and not me.

I’m no expert, but here’s my 2 cents;

With a narrow front driving band, the extra skidding will be taken up by the middle band.

Wider base bands shift the weight of the boolit to the rear, and “yaw” at the nose accelerates.

Shifting the weight forward aids balance- think of a dart with point, then weight, fins in the rear.

Oops - I guess that’s 3 cents.

[45 2.1]

Skidding???????...........Whats that? If you got it your doing the wrong thing. I just shot some of the 454640 GB boolits at over 1250 fps out of a couple of 45 Colts, rifle and pistol. These have less front band/engaugement than what your looking at and they didn't skid at all. Alloy, toughness and hardness is what you want to look at if you got this condition.

[Cord]

I am hoping to not anger anyone here by simply posting my opinion.

I wanted to raise a design point regarding a few thousandths of an inch.

If the mold is made as drawn, I still very much want one.

[45 2.1]

I am hoping to not anger anyone here by simply posting my opinion.

I wanted to raise a design point regarding a few thousandths of an inch.

If the mold is made as drawn, I still very much want one.

Cord, you've not made anyone angry. Mr. Keith thought 1:10 tin to lead alloy was hard, as of 1961 or so. Things along that line have progressed quite a bit since that time. We now have methods to ensure that the alloy used outperforms anything Mr. Keith had access to or even dreamed about. The choices you make yourself on alloy, load and reloading methodology dictate what results you get. Mr. Keiths original boolits, from molds quite a lot older than 1961, show that he changed his designs some along the way also.

[Cord]

It seems to me that the target item for this group buy is like a #452423 but
scaled to .44 cal. and, of course, considerably lighter in weight.

Since that is a classic “Keith Style,” I thought it was appropriate to discuss
the design dimensions of the mold in that regard, that’s all.

And understanding that some would think this too minor an issue,
I wanted to provide some background reasoning for my suggestion.

Oh yeah……Did I mention that I want one of these?

Maybe 2.