Pope style rifling?

[1950Target]

Does anyone know of anyone who is making smokeless barrel blanks with POPE STYLE RIFLING ?

If you know of someone please post a link.

Yjanks in advance for sharing your knowledge!

[Bret4207]

The Marlin Micro groove is pretty close I'm told.

In truth, Popes rifling styles changed through the years. And unless you're using the Pope style loading methods I'm not sure you'd get the full benefit.

Read up on Ol' Harry and decide for yourself.

Seriously- the Micro Groove has his basics all there.

[HPT]

Call Krieger Barrels. I was looking for the same thing at one time, I thought they had something close

[felix]

My preference would be deep grooves, and the depth dependent on boolit diameter. Thataway lube does not have to be perfect for the application. Shallow grooves REQUIRE exquisite lube specs to keep accuracy up over any reasonable range time. Not to mention shooting in wild ambients, such as freezing one day, swimming weather the next using the same lot ammo. On the other hand, rifling style makes little difference when cleaning between competitive relays. ... felix

[MT Chambers]

I wasn't aware that the Pope had any preference as to type of rifling.

[Old Ironsights]

I wasn't aware that the Pope had any preference as to type of rifling.

4 grooves, Crux Decussata (St. Andrew's) pattern...

[marlinman93]

Micro-Groove rifling is most certainly nothing close to Pope rifling. Pope rifling was left hand twist, not right. Pope's was extremely wide grooves,(8x the land width) and very shallow, while Micro-Groove is almost exactly equal lands and grooves every 1/10". Pope cut his grooves .004" deep, unlike most others who cut their grooves .008" or more, as Marlin also does. Pope's barrels were rifled with a gain twist, and slightly choked, Micro-Groove are straight cut, and no gain.
There is one barrel maker today who's barrels are very close to Pope's, and the accuracy of those barrels is renowned and often compared to Pope's. That is Ron Smith at RKS barrels, who builds some of the finest match grade barrels in the world.
RKS enterprises
Ron K Smith
Wimborne Alberta.

Phone number is 780-631-2405

[marlinman93]

I wasn't aware that the Pope had any preference as to type of rifling.

Right about now old Harry is probably rolling over in his grave and pitching a fit! Nobody was more finicky or set in his preferences for the way a rifle's bore was done! It cost him his job at Stevens, just because he wanted the rifling a certain way, and Stevens wanted them good, but good and fast, not just good and done when they were perfect.

[Bret4207]

Micro-Groove rifling is most certainly nothing close to Pope rifling. Pope rifling was left hand twist, not right. Pope's was extremely wide grooves,(8x the land width) and very shallow, while Micro-Groove is almost exactly equal lands and grooves every 1/10". Pope cut his grooves .004" deep, unlike most others who cut their grooves .008" or more, as Marlin also does. Pope's barrels were rifled with a gain twist, and slightly choked, Micro-Groove are straight cut, and no gain.
There is one barrel maker today who's barrels are very close to Pope's, and the accuracy of those barrels is renowned and often compared to Pope's. That is Ron Smith at RKS barrels, who builds some of the finest match grade barrels in the world.
RKS enterprises
Ron K Smith
Wimborne Alberta.

Phone number is 780-631-2405

Get the book, "The Story of Popes Barrels" and get some of the old Gun Digests and Roberts books. The was no one style of Pope barrel rifling, it evolved over the years and he'd cut what the customer wanted too. The basic idea of Popes that the less the bullet was distorted the better follows the Micro Groove idea. Is a MG exactly the same as a Pope ? Are all Popes gain twist? Are all Popes choked? Are all Popes great shooting? No, to all, Popes barrels weren't magic, they were just very well made by a craftsman who understood what he wanted. There were those in the day of Pope who much preferred other makers and set records with their barrels. I'm as much a fan of Pope as anyone, but Ol' Harry got the good press and his name is a lot easier to remember than Schoyen or some of the other makers of the day.

[felix]

The acceleration curve as provided by the components, including the barrel, must be consistent throughout the relay. Anyway that can be accomplished is the golden rule of accuracy, and that is why some barrels seem to shoot better than others. Blaming the barrel can only be valid when a "proven" load cannot be shot in that particular gun. The BR guns (6PPC) exhibit this conclusion many times over. A very slight choke with a very slight gain twist seems to enhance the desirable barrel characteristics for obtaining a consistent acceleration curve. It is easier for the groove cutter mechanism to eliminate chatter of any kind when friction is held constant. No barrel metal is entirely consistent throughout, making it difficult to cut it just right without some added friction to smooth over the bumps and grinds. ... felix

[fido]

Im met Ron Smith a month ago. Had him make me a 6mm 1:8 progressive twist for a 6mm BR I am putting together. Nice guy, cool equipment. He made his rifling machine 30 years ago and is still using it. Haven't chambered the barrel yet.
Stephen

[marlinman93]

Get the book, "The Story of Popes Barrels" and get some of the old Gun Digests and Roberts books. The was no one style of Pope barrel rifling, it evolved over the years and he'd cut what the customer wanted too. The basic idea of Popes that the less the bullet was distorted the better follows the Micro Groove idea. Is a MG exactly the same as a Pope ? Are all Popes gain twist? Are all Popes choked? Are all Popes great shooting? No, to all, Popes barrels weren't magic, they were just very well made by a craftsman who understood what he wanted. There were those in the day of Pope who much preferred other makers and set records with their barrels. I'm as much a fan of Pope as anyone, but Ol' Harry got the good press and his name is a lot easier to remember than Schoyen or some of the other makers of the day.

I wont argue about a few of your points, such as Pope getting the best press, and his name being the best known. As to the rest I'll debate it all day long if you'd like. I hope you can point to one instance where a Pope barrel DIDN'T shoot great, as you're the first guy I've ever heard use that term. Sure some shot slightly better than others, but none of them shot anything but great.
I'm not a Pope fan, as I own Schoyens, not Popes, and I think his barrels were the equal to anything Pope made, although he didn't live as long as Pope, and was much ealrier so modern gun rags didn't know as much of his talents.
I've got Ray Smith's book, and it's not the end all for Pope. Lucian Carey probably knew and wrote more details of Pope than Ray Smith did in his excellent book.
Yes, Pope's barrels evolved, and they were not the same style later as they were earlier, but they can never be compared to a Marlin Micro-Groove barrel. Just because they both had shallow rifling sure wont make them similar. I've got over 50 Marlins, and none of them will hold with a Pope.
Let's get serious, a Micro Groove ain't a Pope, and never will be even close.

[Bret4207]

Ah, now I see. where you're coming from. No, a Marlin MG barrel will never show the work a Pope barrel will. Pope was a master, maybe THE master, I don't dispute that. As for the rest, I originally said it mostly in jest since I've read the same thing a number of times- that the MG barrel shares many common traits with Popes style of barrel. I understand what the guy saying that means- with the shallow rifling and multiple groves it somewhat resembles a Pope design. But Popes barrels did evolve. There's proof enough of that. And yes, Lucian Carey, whose stories I devoured in my youth and still do today, certainly helped make "J.M. Pynes" reputation.

Did any of Harrys barrels shoot less that wonderfully? IIRC Dr Mann had Pope make some barrels that didn't work out so good. And when you think about it, why would any of Popes less than wonderful barrels have made it to today? If they didn't shoot they either got trashed or sent back to be recut.

Sorry if I bent your nose. My sense of humor must be a little off these days. I suppose I shouldn't say things like I did without giving the source for the claim, which I believe was Ken Waters IIRC. Of course he went on to explain his reasoning far better than I could, which was in response to the same question asked here. I'm not sure I buy the idea, but he made it make sense.

[marlinman93]

My nose wasn't the least bit out of place. Simply like to deal with facts, and facts are the barrels that some shooters felt weren't up to their standards would have been fantastic barrels to almost every other competitive shooter of that day, or today.
CW Rowland also was interviewed by one of the gun mags of the day, right after he set the bench rest record for 10 shots at 200 yds. of 3/4" with a Pope barreled Ballard. When asked if he felt Pope's barrels were the finest in the world, and how they compared to Geo. Schoyen's, Rowland was less than flattering to Pope. He said that although most of Pope's barrels were excellent, Schoyen's barrels were ALL excellent.
After old Harry read this in print he refused to take or accept any further contact with Rowland, and never made him another barrel. Did this make the barrels that weren't up to Rowland's standards less than great? I doubt it, but they weren't up to record setting levels.
What's great to one shooter, might not be record setting accuracy to another. It all depends on the shooter, more than the barrel's rifling or bore, and what their standards are. I doubt I could tell the difference with my shooting abilities, between a perfect barrel, and a great barrel when it comes to Pope or Schoyen.