Converting Berdan brass to Boxer

[docone31]

There is always the easy way.
http://users.ameritech.net/mchandler/primer.html
I was going to have Rick make me one, but the MilSurp brass was too thin.

[jack19512]

I think that a few of you guys misunderstood my motives here.

Nope, not me anyway. Like I said, I give you an A for effort. I have 8mm and 7.5X55 Berdan primed brass that I would love to convert to Boxer primers if it wasn't so much work.

[JIMinPHX]

A quick question for everyone else that's messed with Berdans...

What is the diameter of a Berdan primer supposed to be? Are there different variants?

Elk Hunter was saying that he turns his press fit parts to .255". Mine were tight at .252". I can't imagine a .004" interference on a 1/4" diameter. That just sounds like way too much to be able to get it together. I'm wondering if there are variations in the different brands of Berdan brass or something. Or maybe they clearance fit the pocket in the brass & that's why they need the crimp to hold it in.

Any thoughts?

[NuJudge]

There are lots of different Berdan diameters, and lots of different heights, and on top of that there are many different hardnesses. See here:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/ber...imensions.html

Most common large rifle calibers produced in the West used .217" Berdan. The .303 British used .250" Berdan, although FN and late South African .303 was .217" Berdan. Most 7.62x54R is .254" Berdan, except for Albanian and early Bulgarian which is .217". IIRC the 6.5 Italian uses a .200" Berdan.

There are also small rifle Berdan sizes.

Its almost enough to drive me to Boxer. Almost.

CDD

[higgins]

The only 7.62X54R milsurp berdan brass I've personally seen that I would even consider for conversion for reloading, even for light loads, is the nny 80s(?) brass. I have fired a lot of Bulgarian brass-cased 54R that looks good, is well annealed, but either cracks in the neck or mid-upper body too frequently (light ball) or leaks around the primer about 50% of the time (heavy ball). The Albanian 54R brass I've seen is definitely "one shot" brass. Most .303 Brit. seems to be good brass, but could use a neck anneal; in fact .303 may be the only milsurp round that I've never picked up an empty military case (and I've scavenged a lot) with a nasty rupture across the base or in the head of the case; maybe the "flange" is good reinforcement (feel free to post your photos of ruptured once-fired .303 cases at this time). In 8X57, again nny from the 70s and 80s looks good, but 50s Yugoslavian is suspect; only a couple of months ago I had a 1954 Yugo rupture down about the bottom third of the case and across the head to the primer pocket (yes, the K98 was unscathed). I admire anyone with the abilities and the tools to do this, and I'm sure it's rewarding when it works. I guess the bottom line of my post is to be very critical of milslurp brass, particularly some 54R and 8X57. and don't assume it's good just because it may look good.

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi
I see this has been thought out a few times. I like everything I have read here. For my twist I get the case decapped and anvil drilled and cut flat.I then made some sleeves that pressed into the .217 pocket. The sleeves where drilled for a good fit for small rifle primers. Still a lot of screwing around but they do work.
n.h.schmidt

[LEDSLINGER]

You might use some stud and bearing mount loctite (red) to hold the sleeves in place.

rockrat might be on to something. I was a maintenance machinist for 20 yrs. and used it a lot. It's tough stuff and really grips!

[TDB9901]

For what it’s worth……

I’ve recently been fooling around with something along this line, and found something that may be of interest this morning.

I got a box or two of Eastern Bloc, 7.62X39, brass cased, Berdan primed stuff quite awhile back, and shortly after shooting some of it, drilled and countersunk it for 209 shotshell primers, ( Pretty simple, as mentioned in a previous post) planning to reuse it as low pressure plinkers.

Just the other day, I finally got around to digging it out, and doing so, found that it worked OK……as expected. BUT…..when I again resized, and decapped it, the center came out of the 209, leaving the cup……………HMMMM…….. After studying the pocket for a bit I decided to do some experimenting, and found that a spent Large Pistol primer,….. with a flash hole drilled in the center……. would bottom out in the 209 pocket, and a live Large Pistol primer would seat almost perfectly on top of it…………. A Large Rifle in the bottom left me with too shallow a pocket, and the new primer was too high for safety, but two Large Pistols looked just about right.

Haven’t fired any of them yet, but if kept in the low pressure range I’m dealing with for the 209’s I don’t see why it shouldn’t work. There may of course be variations in sizes of primers, and cups, but with Remington 209’s and Wolf large pistol, it seems to be about right, and a possible solution for using the Berdan brass for something , and with a bit more economy than a new 209 every time.

Maybe not a big deal, but I thought it interesting, and worth sharing.

Tom

[KCSO]

I'd give it a try and see if there was any leakage. If not it should be a cheaper way out. I haven't bought any shotgun primers in years so I don't knoow if the cost difference would be worth it. I have to admit that the last time there was a primer SHORTAGE me and a friend both stocked up on everything and when he died I got his stash too. I have 5 thousand shotgun primers now and I load 100 black powder loads a year. All together I muust have 30-40 thousand primers put upp in ammo can's.

[leadman]

Jim, I was thinking about the case necks expanding with your punch set-up. Ever use one of the Lee reloading kits you use with a hammer? It has a die that the case is driven into to size the neck, then it is set in the base and a rod is used to drive it out. You could make a similar die that was a little larger so it supported the neck but did not fit real tight. Then you could have a base with a recess in it to position the case for primer removal.

It might be best to size the neck before primer removal so when the neck expanded it would be about the same size as a fired case.

[Frank46]

Was going through my stash and found about 45 south african 303 cases. The idea of converting them to take boxer primers was kind of complelling. This is great brass
and doesn't deserve being chucked into the scrap bucket only after one use. Wouldn't there be some way to swage the primer pocket down in size so as to be able to take the standard large rifle primer. I seem to remember someone doing something similar to that process. I believe the gentleman was trying to extend the life of magnum cases because after a few shots his brass had expanded so much that the primers just about dropped into the primer pocket. The setup was quite simple. I believe he took the case and set in on a rod in the vertical position, than took the primer pocket swager and hit it with a hammer to close up the primer pocket. Supposedly he extended the life of his cases by a great amount. Now magnum pressures should not exist in the 303 british case. So maybe his system could be adapted to lower pressure cases. Frank

[JIMinPHX]

Jim, I was thinking about the case necks expanding with your punch set-up. Ever use one of the Lee reloading kits you use with a hammer? It has a die that the case is driven into to size the neck, then it is set in the base and a rod is used to drive it out. You could make a similar die that was a little larger so it supported the neck but did not fit real tight. Then you could have a base with a recess in it to position the case for primer removal.

I had thought about making a ring to support the neck so that I could do the water trick without blowing out the neck, but if the neck was supported, I think that the brass would just give somewhere else. I'm not sure about that. I didn't try it. It's just that my expectation of poor results made me try something else first. That may indeed work. The next logical step in that progression would be to support the whole case in a sizing die while hydro decapping. It just seemed like too much work, so I went the other route. The idea does have merit though. I may try it some day if someone else doesn't get to it first. Thanks for the idea.

[relics6165]

Guys:

I've been lurking here a long time, and have learned, or relearned, quite a bit. I'ts been a long time since I fired up the ol' lead pot and cast a few (time problems, y'know), but, like everybody else, the high prices of everything have got me to thinkin'.................yes, I know, that can be a dangerous thing! One of the things I do in my line of work is come up with unconventional solutons to keep aging machinery running, and I'm attempting to apply some of this logic to berdan primed brass.

Like a lot of y'all, I have a plie of berdan primed brass I just haven't been able to make myself chunk, or sell to the recycler (oops, too late for that.................!). The thought of either finding berdan primers (oops, too late for that, too............!), or converting the brass to boxer primers has been rolling around in my mind for quite a while now.

This post will refer to .217 (the most common size) berdan primed brass, and full power loads. I am actually thinking of 7.62x51 South African or Portugese brass, with crimped and sealed primers, but what I'm thinking should work for other brass, too. This should work with .250 berdan primers if the cup is over .020" thick, maybe even better than .217 primers.

One of the things I'm seeing (actually reading) is that y'all are all thinking about depriming your brass first, then trying to fill the now too big primer pocket with a sleeve to get back to a .210 large rifle primer. Now, what I'm thinkin' will definitely require a lathe, but here goes......why not use the sides of the old berdan primer as your sleeve?

My thinking goes something like this.......

Take your brass, pop it in the appropriate collet in your lathe, and machine off the face of the primer. Then remove the case from the collet, swage the existing anvil back into the case head, thereby closing the berdan flash holes. Then place the case back in the collet, ream (or machine) the existing primer sides to .210, uniform the pocket, and then drill the new flash hole.

The only potential problems I see with this method might be the thinness of the primer pocket bushing (.217-.210= .007/2=/.0035). However, with the remains of the berdan primer being held in place with the existing (undisturbed) primer crimp and sealant , and then locked in place at the bottom with the brass displaced when swedging the anvil, it might hold.

Anybody that tried this would certainly know when they deprimed the case the first time with the new boxer primer.........if the sleeve popped out with the primer, it wouldn't work, but if it stayed in? Surely it wouldn't be very difficult to make up 10 or so cases like this to try out.......

Y'alls thoughts?

Remember, ,this cost exactly what you paid for it.......

HTH

[jh45gun]

so if you drilled out some rifle cases for 209 shot shell primers what sort of loads can you safely use say velocity wise. I know plinker loads were mentioned but I like to keep my loads in the 1600 to 1800 fps range would that be too much with 209 primers?

[relics6165]

jh45gun:

When using a 209 shotshell primer, I'm not sure you can look at the velocity of the bullet, as much as you need to look at pressure involved. A 209 shotshell primer is designed for what, about 10,000 to 15,000 psi (or so, without lookin' it up)? Your loads would need to be kept in a pressure range compatible with a 209 primer used in a shotshell.

Without knowing exactly what load/cartridge you are referring to, I can't tell you exactly what that would be.............but I bet 1800 fps would be pretty hot for a 209.

HTH

[jh45gun]

OK Any berdan primer cases I would ever use would be for the 7.5x55 swiss For my converted 284 cases and my regular boxer primed 7.55 cases I use 20 grains of 2400 and a 180 grain cast bullet.

[jh45gun]

As far as decapping berdan primed brass Elmer Keith in a book I once saw showed how he did it. He drilled a hole in a block of wood so the case head was about flush with the wood. He then made a pick type thing that he tapped to the side of the primer to pierce it. (Think like a pick like you get in a nut cracker set sharpened. Once the primer was pierced at an angle then put like a small block under the pic for leverage and pry out the primer. He said he did lots of them like that. I suspect maybe a long thin screwdriver might be made to adapt for this.

[TAWILDCATT]

I am in the process of converting 7.35 carcano.the jap and carcano are practical the others require a sleeve.I use the RCBS berdan decaper and then swedge the tit flat thus closing the primer holes.then use a center drill to spot the center and then a .062 drill to make the flash hole.w I need to deepen the hole and ream the diam.lyman has the tool to do that.OF COURSE THE TOOL IS BACK ORDERED.
I have 1000 8 mm lebel and 1000 7.7 jap mg rds to do.and the lebel woun't come out even if you pray.but one of you gave me the desire to do what I had been contemplating cut the top of the primer to use the walls of the primer.
JIM:I had to laught as I read your story.haveing tried to convert I knew what you were going thru.my lathe is a sears/dunlop 1939/50s and I only have a 4 jaw and with a spindle of 1/2 X 20 nothing will fit but I think I found one on a mini lathe but the price oh vay.
I needed three cups on this one.

[Buckshot]

This post will refer to .217 (the most common size) berdan primed brass, and full power loads. I am actually thinking of 7.62x51 South African or Portugese brass, with crimped and sealed primers, but what I'm thinking should work for other brass, too.

One of the things I'm seeing (actually reading) is that y'all are all thinking about depriming your brass first, then trying to fill the now too big primer pocket with a sleeve to get back to a .210 large rifle primer. Now, what I'm thinkin' will definitely require a lathe, but here goes......why not use the sides of the old berdan primer as your sleeve?

My thinking goes something like this.......

Take your brass, pop it in the appropriate collet in your lathe, and machine off the face of the primer. Then remove the case from the collet, swage the existing anvil back into the case head, and then drill the new flash hole.

The only potential problems I see with this method might be the thinness of the primer pocket bushing (.217-.210= .007/2=/.0035). .

Anybody that tried this would certainly know when they deprimed the case the first time with the new boxer primer.........if the sleeve popped out with the primer, it wouldn't work, but if it stayed in? Surely it wouldn't be very difficult to make up 10 or so cases like this to try out.......

Y'alls thoughts?

Remember, ,this cost exactly what you paid for it.......

HTH

The idea sounds useable, especially for sealed and crimped primers. The one issue would be spinning the original primer walls out once the base was removed, the Berdan anvil flatened, and the new central flash hole drilled. Turning the original primer walls down may very well spin the old primer in the pocket, as brass is very 'grabby'.

If that happened you might have to then remove the crimp to get the thing out, as once it's spun in the pocket you only have 2 options for a retry. Once would be to try to get some threadlocker down between it and the case. Or you might try re-crimping, or even staking. I'm just thinking of what could, or might happen. If a person had a need it would for sure be worth a try.

"When using a 209 shotshell primer, I'm not sure you can look at the velocity of the bullet, as much as you need to look at pressure involved. A 209 shotshell primer is designed for what, about 10,000 to 15,000 psi (or so, without lookin' it up)? Your loads would need to be kept in a pressure range compatible with a 209 primer used in a shotshell.

Without knowing exactly what load/cartridge you are referring to, I can't tell you exactly what that would be.............but I bet 1800 fps would be pretty hot for a 209."

While shotshell loads DO run at much lower then common rifle pressures, the 209 will hold considerable pressure. When I'd altered a bunch of 8x56R brass I had that in mind and started with very mild loads. As you mentioned, I was a bit past 1800 fps with both the RCBS (205gr) and Lee (210gr) slugs sized .335" before I began to experience the occasional pierced primer.

...............Buckshot

[shotman]

anyone want a 100 berden primers? OK before I get a smart ass they have not been fired