Converting Berdan brass to Boxer

[JIMinPHX]

With brass getting a little hard to find lately, I've found myself scrounging through some material that I would have turned my nose up at in the past. In particular, I've found myself looking at Berdan brass & asking myself - why can't I make this stuff work again? I'm sure that I'm not the first guy to ask himself this & I'm sure that some of what I just figured out for myself has already been done by others, but I thought that I would just post what I did here & ask for others to comment on it.

I just dove right into it on my own without looking up what others had done first so that my initial attempts would not be swayed by what worked for others in the past. I figured that way I would try more things & the experiment would be more productive.

The first trick would be to get the old primer out. I had heard someone mention hydraulic decapping once & though that sounded like a good idea. I started by turning down a piece of scrap metal to just under the diameter of a fired cartridge neck ID, filling the cartridge with water, inserting the rod & hitting it with a hammer. I started with a steel casing that was garbage anyway because I didn't want to waste one of the few pieces of actual brass that I had. I struck at the rod with my hammer & I was greeted by a high intensity spray of water in the face.

OK, time for prototype modification #1. I added an O-ring to the rod. I tried it again & promptly tore the O-ring on the case mouth. I flared the case mouth with an M die, inserted a new O-ring & bang, it was like magic the next time I tried it. I whacked the rod with a hammer & the primer popped out. I thought I had that one licked. Then I tried that trick with a brass case.

I hit the rod & nothing happened. I hit it a little harder & it was like magic, the neck of the case bulged out to about 3/16" bigger than it should be in diameter. The neck was ruined. What I hadn't realized, was that the brass case had a crimped in primer & the steel case did not. Apparently, the water trick works if the primer is not crimped in. The picture below shows what I got when I tried to resize the case with the blown out neck. It wasn't pretty. Someone who knows a little more about case forming than I do might be able to bring this case back into usable condition, but I don't know how to do it.

[JIMinPHX]

The next idea I came up with was to remove the primer with a boring bar in a lathe. That was educational. It showed me what was under the primer cup, but It wasn't the way that I wanted to keep doing this. I really wanted to come up with a method that the average joe could use in his basement. After seeing that the anvil of the primer was formed into the brass case, I looked inside the case a little closer & saw that there was a dimple in the center. This seemed like a natural center guide for a drill bit, so I rigged up a little drill extension with a stop collar. I have it shown in a Bridgeport here, but it would work equally well in any old drill press. I'll bet I could even use it successfully in a hand drill if somebody bet me that I couldn't.

[JIMinPHX]

With the center spot drilled out of the brass case, a standard Lee type decapping rod & a hammer was able to overcome the crimp that held the primer. I was able to decap successfully, but this leaves you with brass that has more cross sectional area of open passage between the case cavity & the primer area. That may not be the best thing. I also tried to turn the crimp out of the brass case using an E bit on my lathe to see if I could use the hydro trick & not have to drill the extra hole. The E-bit made a mess of the case base. I would need a small trepaning tool or at least a tool with a much better clearance angle to pull that trick successfully. since I didn't want to get that sophisticated on this project, I went back to the drill method. The picture below shows the two methods that I abandoned & the one that I decided to go with. the left shows a failed attempt to turn out a crimp. The center shows a hydro bulge. the right shows the hole drilled through the center of the primer pocket.

[JIMinPHX]

The next trick was to remove the remnants of the primer anvil that had been formed in the primer pocket. I used an end mill in my lathe, but a primer pocket uniforming hand tool would have worked at least as well if not better. I then chamfered the primer pocket a little, like I would on any ex-military brass. Now I was confronted with a primer pocket that was bigger in diameter than a standard large rifle primer. A press fit sleeve seemed like the natural solution. If I had a primer crimping tool to permanently seat the sleeve, that would be even better, but I don't have one, so I just went with a straight press fit.

I got my hands on some half hard navy brass & reamed a hole in the center at .2090" (standard #4 reamer). I tried 3 different OD dimensions, .251, .252 & .253". I made up a simple driver tool out of a piece of 1/4" cold roll & whacked them in with a hammer. The .251" ring went in too easy. I was pretty sure it would be trouble. The other two felt like a true press fit, with the larger one being a little tough to get in.

[osage]

I think you would pull it off with the hand drill so I will not bet you. I think that on Swiss rifle forum there is a good thread on removing berdan primers and converting to boxer for use in cast loads.

man you type fast only two posts when I started mine

[JIMinPHX]

I loaded up the 3 pieces of experimental brass with a modest charge of 11 grains of Unique. All three fired successfully & gave me around 1400fps with normal accuracy & very little shot to shot velocity variation. When I inspected the brass, I saw that the .251" ring had backed out a little bit. The others were still seated flush. When I decapped, the .251 ring came out. The other two stayed put.

I'm thinking that the extra open area between the charge chamber in the brass & the primer pocket probably limits this brass to lower than normal working pressures, but it seems to have been OK for the charge I tried in the gun that I tried. I think that if I stay with primer sleeves that are between .252-.253" in diameter, I should be able to reload several times with just normal loading procedures.

Well gent's, that's what I came up with. What are everybody Else's thoughts on this subject?

[JIMinPHX]

I think that on Swiss rifle forum there is a good thread on removing berdan primers and converting to boxer for use in cast loads.

Do you have a link to that site?

[osage]

No I'm at work and that site is blocked by the IT folks. I think I found it via google when I was looking at getting a K31.

[osage]

I did get to it just now but forums are blocked
http://www.swissrifles.com/

[jack19512]

Although I would give you an A for effort I think I would just try and find the Boxer brass I needed. I do reload the Berdan primed 7.5X55 Swiss brass and have had no trouble decapping it. Here is the only tool I have used in decapping the brass. In order to get a good seal when you decap the tool must be a good snug fit.

I took a fired case and sanded the shank of this broken drill bit until I got the appropriate fit and it works great. Since the Berdan primers are very hard to get and I wanted to keep what supply I had left for special occasions I have since obtained the Boxer primed brass.

[StarMetal]

I know most out gun folks are tinkerers. I've done that myself just to say I did it. Unless things get worse with the component situation it's just not worth the hassle and time to do it. You could drilled them out for a 209 shotgun primer easier for reduced loads only. Buckshot and I done that for the 8x56R Steyr M95's before components became available for that caliber.

You did excellent work on your project.

Joe

[elk hunter]

I've converted berdan cases when I couldn't get or afford boxer primed ones. I grab the case in the three jaw chuck in the lathe and use a small center drill to pierce the primer, then use a small pry bar made from an allen wrench to pry the primer cup out. I then run a 1/4" end mill
.125" in to the primer pocket to take out the anvil. Drill the flashhole. Next I turn down the head of a common/pleantiful large boxer primed case to .255" for about .150" then part it off. Next I press the boxer primer pocket in to the head of the berdan case, the boxer primer pocket is upside down, then I put the case back in the lathe turn off the primer pocket flush with the head of the case and chamfer it. I've fired this type with full house loads with no problems.

[Pavogrande]

To remove berdan primers I use an old lachmiller Berdan de-prime tool - now sold by rcbs -- If the berdan is smaller than large rifle primer -- 7.35 carcano -- I mash the berdan tit, which also closes the two flash holes, then redrill for .209 and a new flash hole -- The berdan .217, and a host of other sizes I just re-drill and spotface the case to accept shotshell battery cup primers -- .241 dia -- Works good for larger rimmed cases like 303, 7.62 russ and 11mm mauser - -- This will also work for 06 size bases -- but is not worth the effort for any case that is available in boxer primer unless they are very, very expensive . The larger berdan primer .254, I think, requires a threaded or pressed sleeve, definitely a labor of love!----- my ha-penny

[rockrat]

You might use some stud and bearing mount loctite (red) to hold the sleeves in place.

[JIMinPHX]

I think that a few of you guys misunderstood my motives here. I didn't think that converting Berdan brass would be a cost effective thing to do. I just wanted to see if I could do it so that in the event I could not get any Boxer brass in a particular caliber, I would not be up a creek without a paddle. I posted about it because I thought that others might find my exploits interesting.

[shotman]

I didnt go though the list but If you look at the cost of the berden primers it may change your thinking there is not many cal out there that boxer brass is not made. graf and midway have a good lot of old cal stuff

[Buckshot]

I think that a few of you guys misunderstood my motives here. I didn't think that converting Berdan brass would be a cost effective thing to do. I just wanted to see if I could do it so that in the event I could not get any Boxer brass in a particular caliber, I would not be up a creek without a paddle. I posted about it because I thought that others might find my exploits interesting.

...............It was an 'excersize' Nuthin' wrong with just seeing if you can, if you had to. Back in the early 90's when Norma was the only game in town for 6.5 Swede ammo (well, CBC was around but spotty) a friend had a bunch of Swede military brass that was used for civilian practice. Nice brass, but Berdan primed. He was very happy until he could no longer find a consistent supply of the right size Berdan primers.

By then I think Pri-Partisan was making it but he asked me if I could alter his brass to use Boxer primers. By that time I was an old hand at altering brass to use 209 Shotshell primers (8x56R, .43 Comblain, 577 Snider and 577-450) but 209's were unacceptable to him. I made up a simple swaging setup. A .264" pin hardened at the end to support the inside of the casehead. The other end of the pin went into a hole in the end of a 5/8" piece of 1018. This set on the arm of his vise and was clamped by the vise jaws.

So you upended a case over the .264" pin. I then turned another piece of 5/8" 1018 that had a nose long enough to mash the anvil down, which effectively closed the 2 Berdan flash holes. It was also the right OD for a LR primer. At the same time there was a larger OD shoulder that swaged the outside of the primer pocket at the rim, inwards. It was effective as it actually swaged probably half the height of the pocket inward. You had to twist the tool to get it out. I used some Kasenit to harden the end.



This is a similar one I made at a later date to try the trick on some CBC 24 ga shotshells I was using for 577 Snider brass.

After he got his brass altered (and I'd had to make a 2nd anvil pin ) I took the brass and made a 3 fingered collet to use in a 9/16" 5C collet in the lathe. With a #2 centerdrill I drilled his flash holes.

.................Buckshot

[shotman]

Now rick if you had to set that up to run 200 brass what would that cost?

[NickSS]

I have reused berdan primers once or twice by the simple expedient of hydraulically decaping the cartridge. I then size the cartridge case and take the spent berdan primer and flattening out the dent in it with a pin punch of the right size. I then placed two green cap pistol caps in the cup and reseated the primer. I then load powder and bullet in the case. This worked for me with black powder in a couple of old rolling blocks until I found boxer primed brass for it.

[Bret4207]

I converted a buncha 8x56R to Boxer. The biggest problem I had was making the Boxer a tight fit.