Swaging 9mm FMJ to .308?

[justwondering01]

This may be a dumb question but I don't know much about swaging and thought I would ask the experts here. Can you swage an already formed 9mm FMJ down to .308 diameter?

[kawalekm]

You can never swage down. You can only swage up. You could possibly make a 30 caliber bullet from a 9mm one, but what you would need to do first is to draw the diameter of the bullet down to less than .308", say .300-.305", then swage up to the final diameter.

The reason for this is that the copper/brass jacket is springier than the lead core. If you draw the bullet down to .308, the lead core would be draw down further, making it loose inside the jacket. That would destroy all accuracy. Only by swaging up to .308 would the core be tight inside the jacket.

By the way, you don't have to make a FMJ from a FMJ. Some FMJ have an exposed lead core at their base, so you could turn the bullet around and make the new bullet into a soft point.

[StarMetal]

I have been ridiculed for saying in a post one time "I swaged up some 9mm bullets". Look online and see what the meaning of swage is:

noun 1. a tool for bending cold metal to a required shape. 2. a tool, die, or stamp for giving a particular shape to metal on an anvil, in a stamping press, etc. 3. swage block. –verb (used with object) 4. to bend or shape by means of a swage. 5. to reduce or taper (an object), as by forging or squeezing

We all know what I meant and the fellow poster meant in this post. We both meant can we use a swage die to change a bullet of one caliber to another caliber. What else would call it??

Joe

[deltaenterprizes]

Drawing?

[BT Sniper]

I find it easier to think of a bullet as nothing more than a copper jacket and lead both of which can be easily manipulated. I also have not found much in life that can't be done. So yes, figure a way to reduce first then swage up to .308.

Good shooting

[kawalekm]

I was in no way trying to ridicule or make someone feel stupid in any way. What I said in my post is technically correct, for bullets. The word "swage" may have slightly different meaning when working with other materials besides bullets, but what I stated is technically correct (for jacketed bullets).

Perhaps what I should have said is that a .355" diameter bullet must first be drawn down to .300" before swaging up to .308". Would that be better accepted?

[justwondering01]

I took no offense and thanks everyone for your input. Does anyone know if there are dies available to draw a bullet down to .300 from .355? I know there are dies available to go up from say .300 to .308. My reason for doing this would be to make 115gr plinkers for my M1 carbine. No one seems to make a cheap FMJ for the carbine. Everything seems to be $0.25/bullet and up. I just got some 115gr 9mm FMJ from Delta Precision for $68/1000 delivered. It would be great to come up with a set of dies that would let me go from 9mm to .30 carbine. At almost $0.20/bullet difference it wouldn't take long to pay off the cost of a press and some dies.

[StarMetal]

I was in no way trying to ridicule or make someone feel stupid in any way. What I said in my post is technically correct, for bullets. The word "swage" may have slightly different meaning when working with other materials besides bullets, but what I stated is technically correct (for jacketed bullets).

Perhaps what I should have said is that a .355" diameter bullet must first be drawn down to .300" before swaging up to .308". Would that be better accepted?

Does this make it sound technically correct:
As a general manufacturing process swaging may be broken up into two categories. The first category of swaging is when the workpiece is forced through a confining die to reduce its diameter, similar to the process of drawing wire. This may also be referred to as "tube swaging." The second category is when two or more dies are used to hammer a round workpiece into a smaller diameter. This process is usually called "rotary swaging" or "radial forging."
Tubes may be tagged (reduced in diameter to enable the tube to be initially fed through the die to then be pulled from the other side) using a rotary swager, which allows them to be drawn on a draw bench. Swaging is normally the method of choice for precious metals since there is no loss of material in the process.

Rotary swaging

Rotary swaging process is usually a cold working process, used to reduce the diameter, produce a taper, or add point to a round workpiece. It can also impart internal shapes in hollow workpieces through the use of a mandrel (the shape must have a constant cross-section). Swaging a bearing into a housing means flaring its groove's lips onto the chamfer of the housing.



Swaging (pronunciation note below) is a metal-forming technique in which the dimensions of an item are altered using a die or dies, into which the item is forced.[1] Swaging is a forging process, usually performed cold; however, it can be done hot.[2]
The term swage can apply to the process of swaging (verb to swage), a die or tool used for swaging (noun swage).




So one can technically swage up or down, you agree?

Hey, I'm foolin with you some. I do think that you can swage up or down though.


Joe

[kawalekm]

Hi JW
I have a suggestion for you. I have a .30 Carbine also and I load mine with Lyman's 311410 bullet cast in #2 alloy. It drops at about 130 grains and I size it to .309". It will cycle the action with only 9.5 grains of H110 and shoots well. That might be your best bet for making an inexpensive plinking load.

Unless you already have a RockChucker or similar design compound linkage press, you'd need to buy that at 132$ (www.midwayusa.com) , and then a set of .308" dies itself costs another 130$ (www.ch4d.com). CH will make you a custom .355" to .300" draw die, another 62$ (www.ch4d.com). That's an outlay of at least 324$ before you even make a single bullet. Midway is selling Remington 110 FMC for 117$/thousand, so you could buy almost 3000 bullets for that amount of money. I would guess that the difference in money would more than balance the amount of time you'd have to invest to remanufacture bullets.
Michael

[StarMetal]

Hi JW
I have a suggestion for you. I have a .30 Carbine also and I load mine with Lyman's 311410 bullet cast in #2 alloy. It drops at about 130 grains and I size it to .309". It will cycle the action with only 9.5 grains of H110 and shoots well. That might be your best bet for making an inexpensive plinking load.

Unless you already have a RockChucker or similar design compound linkage press, you'd need to buy that at 132$ (www.midwayusa.com) , and then a set of .308" dies itself costs another 130$ (www.ch4d.com). CH will make you a custom .355" to .300" draw die, another 62$ (www.ch4d.com). That's an outlay of at least 324$ before you even make a single bullet. Midway is selling Remington 110 FMC for 117$/thousand, so you could buy almost 3000 bullets for that amount of money. I would guess that the difference in money would more than balance the amount of time you'd have to invest to remanufacture bullets.
Michael

If I could find some 5/16 copper tubing I'd play around with that some in swaging something. It's not a standard diameter carried by the hardware stores or Lowes. Wonder if plumbing stores would have it?

Joe

[runfiverun]

ace has it and the refrigerant type supply stores carry it.
it comes out at .312.
the last time i bought it. it was about a buck a foot.
i think it comes in different softnesses too as the stuff i got at ace sized much easier then the refrigerant supply house.

[justwondering01]

I am currently playing with a 2 cavity 120g RN GC Lee mold. I haven't had a chance to shoot the ones I loaded up the other day. At about $.03 for the gas check it is 1/2 the price of the 9mm but takes a lot of time to mold, lube, size, and lube. I thought just running existing bullets through a set of dies would be faster and easier without the added issue of melting lead. I do have an old Rock Chucker press so I don't need that and I have looked a lot of places for the cheap 110gr bullets but everyone is Out of Stock and on Back Order thus my reason for getting the Lee mold. I do like to try new things so I might just try this swaging thing anyway even if the cast boolits work well. Again, thanks for the info.

On a side note, when I was seating the cast boolits in an RCBS die I noticed that the die left a cut mark in the bullet. It appears that the round nose die doesn't fit the bullet very well and digs into it when seating. Has anyone else had this type of problem and how did you fix it?

[StarMetal]

I am currently playing with a 2 cavity 120g RN GC Lee mold. I haven't had a chance to shoot the ones I loaded up the other day. At about $.03 for the gas check it is 1/2 the price of the 9mm but takes a lot of time to mold, lube, size, and lube. I thought just running existing bullets through a set of dies would be faster and easier without the added issue of melting lead. I do have an old Rock Chucker press so I don't need that and I have looked a lot of places for the cheap 110gr bullets but everyone is Out of Stock and on Back Order thus my reason for getting the Lee mold. I do like to try new things so I might just try this swaging thing anyway even if the cast boolits work well. Again, thanks for the info.

On a side note, when I was seating the cast boolits in an RCBS die I noticed that the die left a cut mark in the bullet. It appears that the round nose die doesn't fit the bullet very well and digs into it when seating. Has anyone else had this type of problem and how did you fix it?

I'm playing around with that same bullet for my 30 Carbine and my Redding seating die marks the bullet nose in the same manner. I made me a gas check maker and make my own checks for that bullet and all in all it's pretty satisfactory. I have an old Herters 309 swage die and play around with it. I've taken the RCBS 9mm 124 grain TC nose bullet and forced it into that die and swaged it to a nice .309 bullet that shoot well in my Carbine. I've even taken the Lyman 150 grain Loverin 7mm and swaged it to .309 in that same die and shot it and the carbines slow twist stabilizd it.

Joe

[justwondering01]

I'm playing around with that same bullet for my 30 Carbine and my Redding seating die marks the bullet nose in the same manner. I made me a gas check maker and make my own checks for that bullet and all in all it's pretty satisfactory. I have an old Herters 309 swage die and play around with it. I've taken the RCBS 9mm 124 grain TC nose bullet and forced it into that die and swaged it to a nice .309 bullet that shoot well in my Carbine. I've even taken the Lyman 150 grain Loverin 7mm and swaged it to .309 in that same die and shot it and the carbines slow twist stabilizd it.

Joe

Joe, a quick question since you are using the same cast boolit, I have noticed that the cartridges made with the Lee cast bullet don't go as far down the barrel as standard FMJ cartridges when you insert them by hand. I was wondering if you experienced the same thing and if it made any difference when you shot them? I plan on shooting these at the range on Saturday. The snow here in Michigan is supposed to be gone by then but you never know.

[StarMetal]

Joe, a quick question since you are using the same cast boolit, I have noticed that the cartridges made with the Lee cast bullet don't go as far down the barrel as standard FMJ cartridges when you insert them by hand. I was wondering if you experienced the same thing and if it made any difference when you shot them? I plan on shooting these at the range on Saturday. The snow here in Michigan is supposed to be gone by then but you never know.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. I'll take a shot. The 30 Carbine spaces off the front case mouth. So no matter what bullet I load, I seat them so the cartridge still does that and the bullet isn't seating into the leade in or rifling as I feel the carbine needs good fitting ammo to feed correctly. So I'll make up a dummy round and try them and then seat my live round's bullets accordingly. Does that help?

Joe

[justwondering01]

Joe,
Here is what I mean. I took some pictures showing how far the bullet goes into the muzzel of my M1. (I know they don't go that way it is for illustration purposes only ) The cast bullet doesn't go as far in as the jacketed bullet because of the shape of the bullet. Both bullets are .309 diameter when they engage the barrel but the cast bullet does this much closer to the tip. When I put these in the receiver end by hand, the cartridge with the cast bullet doesn't go as far in as the jacketed bullet. I was wondering if this is normal with this Lee bullet. Will the recoil spring shove the cartridge all the way home?

On a side note, I did e-mail Richard Corbin about reducing bullets and he said that you can do it but the most you can reduce them and still make a decent bullet is 0.01" anymore than that and the bullet won't be any good.

John

[7of7]

In looking at your pictures, it appears that your cast bullet cartridge bullet has the same diameter as the case. The chamber is cut to allow for the bullet to slide in to the free area of the bore, and accomodating the diameter of the brass around the bullet.
Your bullet should step down a few thousanths from the case diameter. I would be inclined to give a taper crimp die a try. ..
If your seating die is cutting into the bullet, it has to be compressing it too. That would explain the way the picture looks.

I am swaging bullets for my carbine... going to try some rebated boattail round nosed....

[pjh421]

Looks like we've got an optical illusion in the photo caused by shadow. Your boolit, being .309" or so is a good fit. Make sure that your COL is such that chambering the cartridge does not seat the boolit any deeper as this will raise chamber pressure over what it should be.

If you can't seat the boolit deep enough to safely chamber just trim the case appropriately and then reduce your powder charge & work back up to the correct amount.

Paul

[MIBULLETS]

Sticking the bullet in the muzzle and having it fit in the chamber are two different things. Most barrels have a throat where the bullet sits before engaging the rifling when fired. As long as the round chambers and the action is fully closed you should be fine. If it doesn't and both bullets are actually the same diameter you would need to seat the bullet deeper until it does. Just reduce your loads and work up.

[TAWILDCATT]

looking at the pictures and knowing what the bullets look like the orgive of the bullet is different and the jacket one has a long taper whereas the lead one is more rounded and full size.you are worrying to much.flair the mouth of case so that it does not cut the bullet when seating.