Lyman #357446

[Whitespider]

I’ve been workin’ with the Lyman #357446 in the K38 I picked up a few weeks ago, darn thing just won’t shoot! I believe I’ve got the lube and sizing diameter right because I’ve not had any leading, not even a single speck of lead. I know the revolver is capable of fine shootin’, when I first acquired it I grabbed some HBWC’s loaded with 3.0-grains Red Dot I had in the cabinet, and put 18-rounds into a nice pretty 2¼-inch group at 25-yards (rested of course).

This Lyman 162-grain SWC boolit shoots all over the paper, I can’t even call the holes in the target a ‘group’. It’s almost as though better than half the rounds are flyers, low, high, left and right. No evidence of key-holing, perfectly round holes in the paper. I weighed a handful before lube-sizing, heaviest to lightest weight was only .3-grains difference. Started with 4.0-grains of W231, tried more, tried less... same thing. I’m not a big believer in changing powders until I can get the projectile shootin’ reasonably well, and this one ain’t shootin’ at all.

Honestly, I’m a little miffed and confused. I’m ‘bout ready to try seating them backwards in the case, can’t shoot any worse. I could try them in my .357 King Cobra, but that revolver hasn’t ever shot anything very well, so it wouldn’t tell me much.

I’m curious; anybody else tried, or used, this boolit in the .38 Special, or at .38 velocities? And, what have been the results?

[anachronism]

Try a different powder. Every gun is a rule unto itself. You should have seen what I went through with a 41 magnum Redhawk, it took years to find the magic load.

[Dale53]

The Lyman #357446 has done excellent work for generations of shooters. What diameter, alloy, and lube are you using?

Dale53

[Poygan]

White Spider:

I share your frustration. Years ago, I had a .358156 that worked well and a .357446 that at best was mediocre. Got rid of the .357446. A few years ago, I bought another .357446 thinking that this time I could make it work. While I didn't try too many variations, I again experienced poor results. I don't recall the boolit diameter but suspect a too small diameter was the main problem. It certainly looks like it should work and I'm sure other have had better luck. But I sold it here to avoid the temptation of further annoyance.

[beagle]

I'm with you on the 357446. I can't get it to shoot consistently in anything and that's several Smiths, several Rugers, a Colt Python, a M1894 carbine and a Contender.

I've opened the bands and in particular the front driving band, I've HP'd it and tried every diameter from .356" to .360". It just gives flyers with every load I've tried.

I have an old 1958 vintage Python with a very tight barrel and it shoots fairly well in it but not as well as other designs do.

In talking with Crazy Mark, we're kind of of the opinion that there's a design flaw in the design. Now, I've probably shot 5 thousand rounds with it and no consistent results.

I've given it up as a bad cause and the 429360 in the .44 Magnum for the same reason.

Now, having said this, I've noticed that the faster the velocity, the better the accuracy but at .38 Special velocities, it won't cut it for me and if someone wants to take my mould over and give it a try, I'll make them a deal on it./beagle

[georgewxxx]

I'll have to concur with Beagle. While trying to work up loads for my son-in-law, I've tried 5 different moulds and after 500 rds, the 358446 is definitely the worst. The old round nosed 358311 will always get the better groups no matter how fast I push them. It doesn't make nice wad cutter type holes like the others do but it sure beats the pants off of the 357446....Geo

[Whitespider]

Well, in a way, I’m glad I’m not alone with this problem. I was starting to believe that my boolit technique(s) was to blame, and I suppose it still could be.

Here’s what I’ve tried...
First I slugged the barrel and cylinder mouths of the revolver. The mouths measured .3589, the 5-groove barrel made it impossible to get a consistent measurement. But, the barrel slug would fall through the cylinder mouths with a slight tapping.
Next I cast a few boolits from the #357446 using WW alloy plus a bit of tin. The front and rear driving bands averaged about .3578 (not quite perfectly round), but the center bands were somewhat smaller. I ran them through my .358 lube-sizer die, using my homemade lube (that’s another story). Tried 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5-grains W231, they didn’t shoot worth a darn.
So I carefully lapped the mold, working a little at a time, until I had it dropping round(er) boolits, with all bands at .3584 (+ or - .0001). Sized them in the same die and ended up with boolits measuring .3582-inch. Tried 3.5, 3.7, 3.9, 4.1, 4.3 and 4.5-grains W231, they didn’t shoot worth a darn.
Even though the gun shot very well with the HBWC’s, I thought maybe there was something amiss with the revolver. I tried a few small groups using individual cylinder chambers, didn’t change a thing.
Again I carefully lapped the mold, keeping an eye on the weights being dropped from the two cavities, until it was dropping at just over .359-inch. Opened up my sizing die until the sized and lubed boolits measured .3587-inch, a nice snug fit in the cylinder mouths. They didn’t shoot worth a darn.
I thought maybe I’d screwed-up the lapping and mismatched the two cavities or some such. So I separated the boolits from each cavity and treated them as two different boolits using 3.7, 4.0, and 4.3-grains W231. Neither boolit shot worth a darn. In fact, they shot exactly the same, and they didn’t shoot any better, or any worse than the boolits that came from the un-altered mold.

Listen, I’d be willing to try a different powder, but I doubt a powder change is gonna fix 25-yard groups that are measured with a 12-inch ruler. Seriously, a 12-round string will have maybe five or six in a 2 to 3-inch group and the other six or seven rounds are scattered about the target like a shotgun pattern. If I do give the mold another chance, with another powder, I’ll use something a long ways from W231 burn rate. I’m not holding out much hope.

[mainiac]

Well aint this sumpthin!!!! I bought a 357466 a few years ago,and i couldnt get it to shoot! I didnt get on here and ask the question you did,because i thought it was just my mold. I feel better knowing that i dont have the only bummer out there!

[44 WCF]

I too had a this mould. I had bought the mould new, old stock from a family owned hardware who got out of the castng and reloading business many years ago. Was when I first started casting. But was I ever pround of that 4 cavity mould, my first and price was only $23.95, a mid 60's or so price in 1988.
Couldn't get it too shoot, and leading was horrible, I called Lyman, they explained this mould was smaller diameter and was made for .38 revolvers from years ago that had tight groove diameters and seems somthing about the riflling twist and hot rod loads in 38 cases or whatever. If I banged it hard, with softer alloy was somewhat better.

Being new caster at the time, I didn't realize .357 sizing die was just barely touching the bullets, With receipt I shipped them the mould, gave me credit for my purchase price, I paid the difference and they replaced it with the current mould 358477, all is well and I use .358 die.
Don't know if it cause of the ill shooting for others, but I sure couldn't find a fix for that mould in 3 differnet revolvers, a carbine and a Contender barrel.

44 WCF

[David R]

It shoots awesome... as in the best in my ruger security six with 4.0 of bullseye with 38 cases. I bought the mold here from some one, maybe one of the above posters. Its a 4 banger.

Sized .359 with a Star, Carnuba Red lube.

David

[BABore]

It will shoot fine, just not at low velocity and pressure. Push it hard and it will perform. Sadly, it's not a great plinker.

[Dale53]

Whitespider;
It sounds to me like you're a careful worker and are doing the right things.

I believe I would market that mould and get myself a mould for a bullet easier to work with. I have had good luck with a 358429 (Elmer Keith bullet) and the Lee 358-158-RF. The Lee is available in the six cavity mould and that is ALWAYS a plus.

Dale53

[Whitespider]

Yeah Dale53, I’ve already made up my mind to get a different SWC mold for the K38. Even if I somehow got the #357446 to shoot acceptably, I don’t think I’d ever have any confidence in it. Although, out of curiosity, I am gonna try it with some full-house loads in my King Cobra, might just be the boolit that revolver has been waitin’ for.

I find it interesting that the consensus here is this boolit needs to be pushed hard to perform. Interesting because my Lyman 47th edition lists it for the .38 Special at velocities well under 1000 fps, yet doesn’t list it at all for the .357 Magnum.

[crazy mark]

Like Beagle said, I too have tried HP'ing a couple, lapped out a mold, beagled a mold. Tried them in a model 19 S&W, RBH, Marlin 1894, Rossi 92, and different Taurus and Rossi's in 357 and 38 spl. Shot them fast and slow. I even swaged a gas check shank on some with no success. Best groups were 5-6" at 25 yds. They did tumble out of my Colt PPS in 38 S&W at 25 yds. I think I have 4 of these molds. Mark

[crowbeaner]

Spider; I have several of the 357446 moulds; the newer ones are undersized compared to the old Ideal one holers I prefer. I use the old ones, ladle pour, and use a mix of lino and WW metal. I size to .358" and use 50/50 lube. I shoot 5.0 of Unique or SR 4756 in the 38, and 2 loads in the .357- 11.0 and 13.5 of 2400. I had an old pre-27 that hated 2400 but loved WW296; I loaded them with 14.0 of 296 and mag primers. The old moulds cast boolits that are easily .360" as cast which allows a good sizer fit. In my experience, it's a gun thing. A couple of Pythons I had to work with wouldn't hit the broad side of the barn with that boolit design; they didn't like the 358156 either unless loaded in 38 cases over 13.5 of 2400 and seated to the lower crimp groove ala Skeeter Skelton's load. YMMV. CB.

[Whitespider]

I’m bringing this old thread back as sort of an update.

I picked up a Lyman two-holer #358477 since this old thread died, drops at 156-grains with my alloy. Today was the first chance I had to shoot some of them from the K38. I used the exact same alloy, lube and diameter as I used with the #357446. After running a cylinder full at my steel plates to kind of “season” the bore a bit, I sat down at the bench and promptly put 12-rounds into a 1¼-inch group at 25-yards, 10 of which cut a single ragged hole that measured about ¾-inch. Sooooo.... I grabbed some of the #357446’s and tried them again.... I couldn’t keep all six rounds on the paper, and I tried three times.

It ain’t the gun, it ain’t the shooter, it ain’t my home-made lube and it ain’t my casting technique; that #357446 just shoots horribly. I haven’t gotten around to trying the #357446 in my King Cobra yet, but I’ve got a feelin’ that mold will be showin’ up on eBay in the near future.

[lathesmith]

Well, I guess I have to say that my experience mirrors the "mediocre to terrible" results group, with this particular slug. I have seen some speculate the rear driving band is too thick, the molds are too small... I dunno, something sure ain't right, the 358446 was a lousy performer for me. I didn't mess with it very long, I have too many other designs that work great to waste much time toying with this dud. My vote goes to the 358429, 358311, 358477, 358430, ...and at least another 1/2 dozen other 357 molds that have always delivered decent groups for me.
lathesmith

[Bret4207]

That 477 is a good 'un for me too.

[mroliver77]

I picked up a 477 4 cav some years ago. It sat a while and then I read a Glen F article that praised it. I dug it out and tried it. It has become one of my favorite molds. I keep seeing the 446 for sale and think to pick one up. Mebbe not now.
Jay

[catboat]

I just came back from the 50 ft indoor range. I tried a few loads in my 357 mag SW 586 (6" bbl), and my Springfield 1911a1 45 acp.

I cast about 300 Ideal 357446 SWC plain base bullets from straight wheelweights. Sized them with a .360" SAECO sizer (pretty much just lubed them-just barely touched the bullet with is dropping as cast at .3595"ish). I lubed them only to the lower lube groove (not both lube grooves). Lube was standard NRA 50/50 beeswax/alox. I then loaded them with 3.0 grains of Bullseye (with WW small standard primer) into RP 38 special cases. I would like to bump the Bullseye load up to the 3.5 grain area soon.

I loaded the 357446 bullet at two depths. 25 rounds were loaded "long" to the second lube groove, for an OAL of ~ 1.53". Another 25 rounds were loaded to the normal crimp groove, yielding an OAL of ~ 1.45". My S&W 586 has a 357 mag chamber, but I have to shoot a 38 special cases-as per range rules-which is why I loaded the bullet at two overall lengths.

I shot 5 shot groups, at 50 feet (17.3 yards), indoor. The barrel of my SW 586 was rested on a sandbag. I held the revolver with a 2 handed grip and shot single action. Sights were stock factory open, square blade rear, and factory ramp front.
Overall, I got 1.5 inch groups for those 5-shot groups using the Ideal 357446 SWC bullets. No significant group size was noted from either seating depth. I was curious if the longer loaded round would be more accurate in a 38 special case, loaded in a 357 magnum chamber. I didn't see it. No evidence of leading.

I've read a number of posts of inaccuracy from the 357446 bullet. Maybe my mold, being an older "Ideal-made" mold is a factor. I measured the as-cast bullet with a base ring diameter in solid .360" range, and the next two bands at .359+ish" diameter. The front band, in front of the crimping groove, measured 0.352" (sort of a "bore-rider" groove I guess). These measurements were from straight air-cooledwheelweights. The mold is a double cavity, unmodified mold. The cylinder throats on my SW 586 are a uniform 0.357". I have never slugged this pistol's bore, or forcing cone-so I don't know those measurements. My sized and lubed naked .360"ish diameter 357446 bullet will not pass through the throats of this revolver with a 5/16" dowel. I wish my throats were .358", to minimize the possibility of matching the bore diameter coming out of the .357" throat. Most cast bullet shooters like slightlt oversized bullets going down the bore. I'm one of them.

So, that's my range report of the Ideal 357446 cast bullet. So far, so good. I don't think I did anything "secret" or magical to the load. I used full-length sized yellow brass RP 38 special brass, that was at least 1x loaded. I didn't trim them or uniform the primer flash hole (yet, but I will-which could add to accuracy.).

Oh, and my 45 acp range report? I bought a used Springfield Armory 1911a1 blued, 5 inch bbl, 45 acp, 5 years ago. I don't know what was done to it. It has a MEC rear adjustable sight, and a non-factory front sight. Trigger is 4 lbs. Slide feels pretty tight to me (minimum play). It has a 2 piece full length recoil guide (which I don't like-a pain to field strip). I don't know if barrel is stock or aftermarket. I don't know what "poundage" recoil spring is in it-but it feels relatively stiff; guessing ~ 16+ lbs.

A quick outdoor, 25 yard off hand range test with factory Rem 230 FMJ this past October, proved the gun fed and ejected fine. Groups were in the 3-4" range at 25 yards, 2 handed offhand (non rested), quick shooting.

Tonight, I loaded up some recent cast SAECO #69 (200 grain SWC flat base) from wheelweights. 4.0 grains Bullseye. WW Large Pistol primers. OAL 1.23" Taper crimp at mouth @ 0.469". RP cases were trimmed (Lee 45 acp trimmer) and flash hold uniformed. Pistol was fired over sandbags, with bottom of muzzle on sandbag support, using two hand hold.

50 ft results were great. 5 shot groups ran 1.0-1.5 inches. Fired 50 rounds (10 groups). I was getting 4 shots in a one hole cluster, and one shot a bit out. One group was a single ragged hole (3/4"). I was learning how to hold this pistol. I found I was pushing down non-uniformly with my grip, causing the front end contact area "in strong contact" with the rest. When I noticed this condition, and relaxed the forward strain with my grip, I shot best. I was VERY happy with the results. I think I found my 45 acp 50 foot load for winter postals.

As for me, so far so good with the Ideal 357466 bullet.