45acp oal

[sdelam]

Alright slow done here fellas. It appears there's some confusion. I gave up on the 228-1R and switched to a lyman 452374. That is what i am seating at 1.265.

I did some more doodling in the garage. I decieded to measure the chamber on the aftermarket barrel vs the factory. Measuring from the same spots on both barrels and taking 10 measurements of each, I found the after market chamber is .007-.008" shorter. I dont know the spec's but that seems alot to me.

Next I started playing with the ammo. I took some mineral spirits and cleaned all the lube off of 50 loaded rounds. I noticed one round that must not have seated straight and had some lead on the case mouth. So taking a scribe, I lightly scatched around the case mouth of all 50 rounds. I found 35 or so had at least a sliver of lead on the case mouth.

With that in mind I decided to load some more with an increased mouth flare as recomended here. I increased the flare a good bit and after 50 rounds checked the case mouth with the scribe again. This time only 2 or 3 had any lead and it was very minor. I think I'll flare the mouth just a bit more and see if I can get rid of the lead smear/slivers all togther.

I went back and re-examined the 228-1R's I had loaded and found several of them had the same lead build up around the case mouth. I still dont like how deep they have to be seated so I'll stick with the lyman.

I'll try and go to the range again and if the "cleaned rounds" work this time then I guess I've about got it.

[Recluse]

Lube should have no bearing on your rounds feeding--unless you have lube literally gooping up outside the case from when the boolit was seated. If that's the case, then you're using way too much lube.

Are you tumble-lubing or lubesizing?

If you're tumble-lubing and having that much excess lube that you feel it is causing chambering problems, then you're putting way too much LLA (or whatever) on those boolits. Easy solution there: cut your lube amount down by half.

But if you're using a lubesizer and still having that much excess lube coming/squeezing out, could be several things ranging from improper sizing of the brass cases themselves, not enough flare when seating the boolit, or a sizer die that is too large, or a combination of any or all of the preceeding.

Now, if that aftermarket barrel chamber/throat is shorter than the Glock's, yeah, that could be contributing as well. But I would think that taking a REAL close look at your crimping--so long as you're seating to proper spec OAL--is where I'd be focusing my attention.

[Crash_Corrigan]

My Taurus 1911 has digested over 6,000 200 Gr LSWC which I molded with a RCBS steel 2 cav mold. I love Bullshop Sprue Plate Lube and that combined with Bruce B's speedcasting and a cold bucket of water has made casting a breeze.

I lube and size the boolits to .452 and lube with Lars Carnuba Red {heated a mite} and then loaded in any brass I can lay my hands on I generally use Clays, bell the mouth with my Lee expanding die, load the boolit and then taper crimp to get out the bell and finally run them thru a Lee FCD. That final step is what keeps everything working smooth. Prior to using the FCD I would get a failure to feed completely in about every 300 rounds fired or so.


I have only found one split .45 ACP case in 25 years of shooting that caliber. They seldom grow too long and generally when they are corroded and really grungy I toss them. Also if the primer pockets loosen up too much an my primers just about fall into the pocket they also are retired.



I set up the dies in my toolhead {Dillon 550B} years ago to just fit a factory 200 GR Copper washed bullet and I have not have had any reason to change it. IT WORKS AND I AIN'T GONNA MESS WITH SUCCESS!

I decap, resize and prime prior to running the cases through the Dillon. I do not know what my OAL i nor do I care.....it fits in the chamber, the case gauge and the darned round work ALL THE TIME. No leading, outstanding accuracy and "cheaper than dirt" just like me "older than dirt".

Station one is where I add powder, two is adding the boolit with a Dillon seating die, three is taper crimping and four is the Lee FCD.

[bobk]

One of the reasons I'm a bit skeptical about all this crimp, what type, how much, etc., is because I started working on 1911s many years ago. I'm sure many of you remember the days when Colt was about all there was to be had. The triggers sucked, the sights were invisible, and they often had trouble feeding anything but hardball. Gunshow mags were often trash, which the vendor had given up trying to make work, so they blew them out for maybe $5. In that bygone era, if you wanted a .45 that worked, you had it smithed, either by you or a hopefully qualified smith.

I'll be the first to admit that I ruined a few sears and hammers, and bent the three leaf springs until they were unreliable. I throated barrels too deeply. I did a lot of stupid things, but this was just the price of my education. I finally got to the point where I did decent work, and the culmination of this was a pair of Commanders that would feed empty cases from good magazines. The triggers went 3 1/4 pounds, and the hammers never followed. I never went whole hog for accuracy at the expense of reliability, though the guns would easily do sub 3" at 25 yards with most any load.

Now, having said all this, I am sure there are smiths who could give you a much nicer 1911. Nobody is beating a path to my door. So I have trouble believing that currently produced guns are not far better than what we had 40 years ago, and probably better than any of my amateur efforts at smithing.

Now, all of this is not related to the poster's original question, but I think he found the answer. His cases needed more belling to eliminate having the case mouth shave lead and push it into a ridge that prevented feeding. He's a good troubleshooter. But I do think that much of the rest of the flailing around here was so much bull puckey. And I'll bet his "bad" loads would feed just fine in an old, loosely chambered Colt, especially one with a stronger recoil spring, because of what some would consider to be an undesirably loose chamber. But the sloppy old Colt would go bang all the time, which strikes me as being a good thing. I never got the impression that a perfectly set up 1911 would group any better with me shooting it than an ordinary Colt would.

Bob K

[Recluse]

But I do think that much of the rest of the flailing around here was so much bull puckey. And I'll bet his "bad" loads would feed just fine in an old, loosely chambered Colt, especially one with a stronger recoil spring, because of what some would consider to be an undesirably loose chamber. But the sloppy old Colt would go bang all the time, which strikes me as being a good thing. I never got the impression that a perfectly set up 1911 would group any better with me shooting it than an ordinary Colt would.

Bob K

Have to politely disagree with the bolded part--and have a Series 70 Gold Cup tuned at Colt (shortly after I acquired it NIB in the 70's) that will prove it. Also have a old GI-issue Gov't 1911 that is looser than a White House intern and rattles more than a pocket full of pennies.

Difference between the two is that in a CQB situation (such as might happen when carrying concealed), I'll trust that old Gov't Colt 1911 with my life. It'll feed anything, anytime, anywhere and keep on shooting.

But if I'm shooting a match, that gun stays in the truck and the Gold Cup gets shot. It'll out-group that Gov't 1911 with ease. But she's a finicky eater and the ammo has to be loaded to spec.

Then on the other hand, I have an ongoing love affair with an old Hardballer that will eat and shoot anything round, but SWC rounds better be done 100% correctly or she'll call you on it. And the only tuning that gun has had is by way of a LOT of rounds being blasted through her. Rough gun, to say the least, but dang if she ain't a shooter.

[Dale53]

I have two 1911's that will feed ANYTHING that is put together correctly. The two guns will reliably group well under an 1" at 25 yards. I have shot the two guns over 100,000 rounds and they are super reliable (stake your life on it reliable). However, they were built up by an EXCELLENT pistolsmith.

I haven't rolled around in the hog lot with mine but with reasonable care (I clean my guns every 300-500 rounds whether they need it or not) they DO perform.

The new guns produced by Kimber, Springfield, and others are FAR, FAR better than Colt EVER turned out. A good number of them would probably rival my built up guns. The good ol' days are HERE AND NOW, fellows...

Dale53

[35remington]

Sdelam, make sure you're not crimping and seating the bullet in the same step. Seating the bullet deeper while the case mouth is being crimped can also "plow up" that ring of lead around the case mouth and prohibit chambering. Seat first, then taper crimp. Sounds like you had more than one issue that needed to be resolved.

Since the question was originally about the 228-1R, which the OP decided to give up on in preference to the 452374, it very much needed to be pointed out that these are entirely different bullets with different chambering requirements related to overall length.

Proper overall length for those two bullets needs to be kept as a separate issue, as these two bullets present different problems. Especially in a short throated gun as is this Glock. Overall length issues are especially critical here.

More belling of the case mouth was not the solution to the issues with the 228-1R, as was mistakenly hypothesized. These bullets still require excessively deep seating in the short throated Glock, as the OP mentions. Since the throating was indeed very short, a 1 ogive bullet is not the answer. So the OP is probably wise to switch to the Lyman bullet if a reasonable duplication of proper overall length is desired.

Those with experience with these issues have no difficulty understanding the different overall length requirements of these two very different bullets, and how a very short throated gun is incompatible with the 228-1R, especially when trying to obtain the proper overall length for the 45 ACP.

These differences needed to be made clear.

I'll leave the bull puckey to those unfamiliar with the differences between the two bullet types, which allows them to draw the wrong conclusion as to possible solutions and compare apples to oranges.

And yes, turning in the mouth flare by crimping is an important aid to reliable chambering, no matter how far over SAAMI spec you think your chamber is. An uncorrected, belled case mouth can easily exceed the inside diameter of the largest chamber and prevent proper chambering. Experienced shooters know this and make sure they remove this belling, generally by taper crimping. Those that doubt this are in considerable error.

A "sloppy chamber" is not the solution for ammo that does not meet specifications, and it does not excuse badly assembled ammo. The solution is to make sure the ammunition is within specifications.

Knowing "how much" is the key to assembling ammunition within specs. You'd darn well better not guess!

[sdelam]

Alright, Let me see....

I guess I'll start on a postive note. I got most of the way through a box of 50 rounds with no problems. Increasing the bell of the case mouth to ensure I didnt shave the lead was the trick. I really apprieate all the help guys.

And yes I did remove the bell with a Lee FCD.


And for the rest of the story.........

I was on round 40 of the 50 round box when IT happened.

























The only thing I can think of is that with all the measureing and re seating etc. I stuck a case in the wrong slot and double charged it? Or maybe a bad case? I dont know.

I do know it hurt........alot! It happened about 2 hours ago and my hands still hurt, like they fell asleep and are waking back up.

It aslo hurt my pride. I thought it happened to other people, careless people, not me I was careful! I'm sure it will hurt my pocket too. $500 gun, 4 bullet molds $100+, 3 extra mags $60, aftermarket barrel $100.

At least I wasn't hurt other than the stinging hands and a nasty blood blister on my trigger finger.

My confidence is a little shaken as well. I will at least pull down the rest of that box, probably the other box I loaded that day and some of the box I loaded yesterday. Just makes me wonder if there are any more out there. I've loaded 3400 9mm since early Feb, 1000 .223 but they'd be hard to double charge.

I guess you can tell I'm a little bumed.

Maybe Glock will cut me a deal on a replacement, who knows.

[35remington]

Bad news. Looks like the frame is completely trashed.

I don't think Glock will just give you another frame, as the frame is the part that is officially the firearm, and the error was due to no fault of their own.

A bad case is much less likely as a cause than a double charge.

[sdelam]

I agree, The likely cause was a double charge.

I dont expect Glock to replace for free. Shall I run the list of Glock rules I broke? Reloads, Lead bullets, aftermarket parts....

[sdelam]

Man I had it shooting nice too...........

[35remington]

They number of guys who have made the same mistake is legion. Including experienced handloaders. A double charge is one of the most common handloading errors.

The hell of it is you'll receive even MORE advice about how to avoid this after the fact, which isn't useful now, but store it away for later.

I'd throw yourself on Glock's mercy (which may be a forlorn hope......does Glock mercy exist?...... but you gotta ask) and see what they can do about a frame. You may need an FFL holder to set up the transaction for you.

It's possible to get 8 grains Bullseye or more in the case without noticing it, especially on some progressives. You may now consider a higher bulking powder (like Red Dot or Unique) that will make a double charge more obvious, but you still gotta look for the double charge, and that's usually the problem.

Glad to hear you weren't hurt.

[MtGun44]

Might have pushed the boolit in during feeding. If it was a double
charge, well - I have been there and done that, I used a
steel frame 1911, cracked the wood grips and boy does that sting!

Very sorry to see this, glad you are OK. Things are replaceable, even tho at
times the financial hardship is a real issue.

Were you using a taper crimp? If no crimp or inadequate crimp, the boolit pushin
would likely be a more probable cause. See if you can push a boolit into the case
with heavy hand pressure. If so, this is not good, may have been the cause. If
the boolits are crimped or really solid due to interference fit, then you likely made
the double charge mistake.

Bill

[sdelam]

Tried to push on the rest of the box and I cant budge them at all.

[sdelam]

I've gone over my loading and the only thing I can think of was that I remember that I was one primer short at the end of the run. Only had 99 loaded rounds. I didnt think much of it then, but now I remember during some of my first couple I was pulling rounds out at different times to check things and I must have put a charged and primed case in station 1 instead of back in station 3. This would explain why I was one round short at the end, I punched a new primer out and reset a second new one and charged it a second time.

[thenaaks]

Man, it breaks my heart to see your Glock like that. I too am glad to hear that you're okay! Now's the time to pick up that Taurus PT145, probably for less than a Glock frame. Don't be afraid to jump back on the horse!

[Echo]

If you had put a previously charged case in station 1 and cycled it, there would have been at least a little bit of powder leak out of the primer hole before being sealed up by the new primer. Didi you notice any powder lurking around station 1 at the end of the session?

[sdelam]

It would have likely fallen down the spent primer hole. I havent pulled the shell plate off the press yet, but that seems like a good call to look for it. thanks

[sdelam]

Man, it breaks my heart to see your Glock like that. I too am glad to hear that you're okay! Now's the time to pick up that Taurus PT145, probably for less than a Glock frame. Don't be afraid to jump back on the horse!

I bought a Taurus snubby and had to send it back to the manufacture for a cylinder clearance issue. I probably wont buy another one.

Dependeing on what Glock says in the morning, I maybe looking a little harder for that 3" 1911. I'd like to find a RIA compact of maybe a para warthog.

[Dale53]

sdelam;
You have my heartfelt condolence's. I am truly happy you escaped injury. Hallelujah! for that, anyway.

I also respect you to not try to direct blame on others. Pretty much what "being a man" is all about.

Dale53