44cal Ranch Dog Group Buy starts now

[jcork]

Steam generated by a hot boolit against the water provides mucho insulation. It is the RATE of heat change which makes the boolit harder than nominal. You need a "water" that has a steaming point way above 220F to accomplish what you are looking for. ... felix

Maybe the answer is Propylene Glycol. It seems to boil at 370f instead of 212f. It is commonly used as 'safe' antifreeze because it is less dangerous than Ethylene Glycol.

[Buckshot]

..............If you make a brine solution it does a very good job in reducing steam pockets/bubbles on the metal's surface. I also seriously doubt that the sponges are required, and may in fact serve no usefull purpose.

When a slug hits the surface of the water it does not continue through the interface while remaining at the same velocity. In fact it will loose a good portion of it's speed, and then accelerate through the water very slowly to the bottom.

..............Buckshot

[Ranch Dog]

RanchDog, I bet there is no difference in hardness between quenching in hot water versus cold water. Why? Steam generated by a hot boolit against the water provides mucho insulation. It is the RATE of heat change which makes the boolit harder than nominal. You need a "water" that has a steaming point way above 220F to accomplish what you are looking for. ... felix

Okay felix... I gave the tap water quenching a try and the got the same results of 31 BHN. I dropped the heavy TLC460-425-RFs directing into a 5-gallon plastic bullet. The boolits were receiving some damage at the bottom so I sunk a couple of shop towel to the bottom and cured that problem. The splashing was bad with the big boolit so I filled the surface of bucket with my small sponges, they are cut 4" X 4" and it pretty much stopped the watery feedback.

[felix]

RanchDog, I forgot the argument. Was it water versus a methylethyl version of antifreeze? Or hot water versus cold water? ... felix

[Ranch Dog]

Just cold water vs. tap water.

[Ranch Dog]

You fellows are as patient a bunch of group buyers as I've seen. I guess this isn't your first rodeo!

I finally got my pressure trace gear rigged up to my Marlin 336-44. I plan on working with both H110 & H4227. What I want to do is give you an idea of when the boolit, with each powder, reaches the SAAMI max of 36.0K PSI with each powder in my rifle. I will do this with a bullet weighing in at 285-grains with the heavy alloys and 265-grains with the lighter alloys. This should give you a starting point for YOUR load work.

The 444 Marlin will be next with a wider range of Hodgdon powders... Benchmark, BL-C(2), H322, H335, H4198, H4895 & Varget. Same format but loads up to 42.0K PSI.

I work with the Hodgdon powder as I have to order everything online... no where to buy it around here. If there was a way to get it to me, I would work with any powder for a "pound". I might have enough RLD7 to get some data with but I'm just about out of it and don't have plans to use it again. I like the Hodgdon powders with cast boolits because Lee publishes a factor for reducing a known load (pressure) to match the ultimate compression strength of the alloy you are shooting. It is a great method of figuring out what the max load of a given alloy is.

Here are some photos... The first is the setup at my range behind my house. I shoot from 25 to 300-yards. As soon as I'm done remodeling my house I will build a cover on the pad I poured. I have water and electric at the pad. The electric specifically for the RSI pressure trace gear.

Next is the setup for the 336-44. The strain gage is attached to the barrel with super-glue. The gage is connected to a cable that runs to an interface box and then the PC. The PC is also connected to the CED Millennium Chronography. This equipment is an outstanding way to develop loads as with it you basically shoot the "ladder" but the software does all the homework for you. Each strain gage is about $30 and they remain on the rifle. They are not reusable. Yep, I'm shooting with the magazine tube and forearm removed. It's a great way to see the potential of your levergun and tune the parts as you put them back on.

Finally, here is the actual gage (pardon the focus). Notice that the gage does not "center" on case because of the short cartridge. Because of this I have to shoot "calibrated" ammunition to correct the data. That is just simply factory ammo at a know pressure. I'm using ammo from Wisc. Cartridge Co. and hopefully they will give me a data reference. If not, I will ship the required rounds out to Western Cartridge Co for the reference data.

That's how it is done... it does take a bit of time and I will be posting the data on my web pages as it is collected. It gives a fellow something to do!!!

[steveb]

Does that Pressure Trace equipment HAVE TO have a laptop or will it store the info till you get back to the desktop??

[Ranch Dog]

It must have the laptop... Doesn't need much of one. You can buy them on eBay for a couple of hundred bucks...

[Ranch Dog]

Besides just looking at a maximum pressure of your load, you really use the software to help you determine the BEST load for your rifle based your your components and the characteristics of your barrel.

Have you ever shot a "Ladder" to develop a load? That is basically what this software works through for you. Attached is the report that it generates. This report is from what I shot yesterday which was five-shots of the same load.

For load development, you would work in load increments and the software would rate each shot/load. For instance, going into this load I knew that 20.5-grains of H110 was near the maximum for this bullet and cartridge. Also knowing that I shouldn't reduce H110 more than 3% or .6-grains, in this example I would shoot six traces (increments) of .1-grain each. My starting load of 19.9, 20.0, 20.1, etc. Each trace would be evaluated against the other and load that best matches the barrel given the 100% efficiency. Using H110 and the small case capacity of the 44 Rem Mag isn't the best example.

I used this RSI Pressure Trace equipment to do my load development with the TLC432-285-RF and my Marlin 444T several years ago. The alloy I was using cast a bullet at 265-grains so I decide to mirror Hodgdon's data for H4198 and the 265-grain Hornady bullet. I took the recommended Max load of 47.0 and a starting load of 42.3 (Max less 10%) and shot the difference between the two in ten traces (intervals) of .5-grains. It rate the max load of 47.0 100%. That step looked at .5-grain intervals so my next step was to shoot 10-traces centered on the 47.0-grain load. So I shot ten more traces from 46.5 up to 47.5-grains in .1-grain intervals. In this fine tuning and in this case, it again indicated that the 47.0-grain load was the best. I wasn't worried about 47.0-grains being the max as I was directly observing the PSI generated by each shot and would not let the next .1-grain interval exceed the 42.0K PSI SAAMI limit for the 444 Marlin. That 47.0-grain load and a 265-grain TLC432-285-RF delivers 40.0K PSI and OUTSTANDING performance! 2370 to 2400 FPS depending on temperature, altitude, and barometric pressure and over 3300 FPE at the muzzle!!!

The bottom line is I fine tuned my rifle in 20-shots. The next step would be to do the same for each appropriate powder. Once a load is chosen for each powder, I take the best load from each powder and shoot against the other best powders. Doing this I've selected the best load and powder for my rifle. Shooting this the old fashion way of load development would take at least 700 rounds of ammo and a lot of time. Comparing groups would be subjective to the shooters ability to deliver consistance shots. With the 7 powders, all this work could be done in 140 shots with the RSI equipment.

I started this work with my 444T two years ago and now I'm at a point that I can finish it with all my firearms. A personal loss in my life, relocating, and rebuilding a home and ranch are now past so I can spend more time with my hobbies. Jim at RSI has been most helpful in solving some issues I had with using the equipment. These ended up being problems I had... not RSI.

RSI Link

[steveb]

Very interesting stuff for sure!

[Ranch Dog]

Well...

Got in some quality time today with my Marlin 336-44 exploring H110 and the TLC432-285-RF boolit. The pressure trace work is kind of slow going but I worked it pretty good looking for a charge limit within the SAAMI spec of 36.0K PSI.

At the same time I'm shooting a "ladder" for my rifle and comparing it to the "Optimum Barrel Timing" information offered through the Pressure Trace equipment. It looks like I've found the exact load my rifle is going to love at the 1610 FPS/33.6K PSI level. 30-shots took about 4 hours to work through.



Here is the setup out on the range behind my house. See that white target way out there. That is the "ladder" I'm shooting at and it is 200-yards out there. That distance defines the difference in .1-grain powder charges pretty easy. It is amazing how accurate a 44 Rem Mag rifle is out to that distance and beyond as long as you understand the ballistic tables and know the yardage.



Here is what some of the data looks like as you receive it at the shooting bench. This represents charges of 20.9 through 21.7-grains in one-tenth of a grain increments.

I will be formatting the information into a web page but it all takes a little time! Next stop is pushing the cartridge to 42.0K PSI for the 336-44 rifles. Then on to H4198 in the 444 Marlin. After that I will come back to H4227 in the 44 Rem Mag.

[jcork]

Next stop is pushing the cartridge to 42.0K PSI for the 336-44 rifles.

Just for clarification, 36k is the SAAMI spec, but the 336/44 (and/or?) 1894 rifles can handle 42k?

Please keep up the excellent work! I had no idea when I joined a group buy that it would include complete loading data!

[Bear4570]

Okay felix... I gave the tap water quenching a try and the got the same results of 31 BHN. I dropped the heavy TLC460-425-RFs directing into a 5-gallon plastic bullet. The boolits were receiving some damage at the bottom so I sunk a couple of shop towel to the bottom and cured that problem. The splashing was bad with the big boolit so I filled the surface of bucket with my small sponges, they are cut 4" X 4" and it pretty much stopped the watery feedback.

Ranch Dog, The way I solved this problem was to place a bath towel over a 5 gallon bucket with a hole cut in the center and held in place with an elastic strap.
the hole in the towel hangs down at the water line which is about 1/3 from the top of the bucket. I drop the bullet into the towel and it rolls into the water, no damaged bullet. Has worked for me for years without changing the outcome of the quenching.

Great info your posting, Love that old Marlin 444.

[Ranch Dog]

Just for clarification, 36k is the SAAMI spec, but the 336/44 (and/or?) 1894 rifles can handle 42k?

Please keep up the excellent work! I had no idea when I joined a group buy that it would include complete loading data!

jcork... Your guess would be as good as mine. I feel comfortable pushing my 336 rifle chambered in 44 Mag up the the 42K PSI level based on the cartridges chambered in that action. On the other hand, the '94s are all chambered in calibers at or near the 36K PSI level. The only exception is the 218 Bee. SAAMI doesn't list a PSI limit for that cartridge, just a 40K CUP limit. RSI Pressure Trace users would convert that to about 42.7K PSI. The CIP PSI limit (Euro) for the 218 Bee is 46.4K PSI. All this said, in the 1894s I would stick with the 36K PSI limit.

Based on the Optimum Barrel Timing information supplied by the Pressure Trace equipment, I suspect my rifle will be shooting 21.0-grains of H110 for some outstanding groups.

[Ranch Dog]

Let me add more more thing. To take advantage of these pressure limits... you have to cast a tough boolit. A bullet being pushed at 36K will require a BHN of about 28. 42K will require a BHN of 33.

I cast with water quenched 1 to 1 linotype/WW and it hits these upper numbers yet remains a great big game boolit!

[Ranch Dog]

Ranch Dog, The way I solved this problem was to place a bath towel over a 5 gallon bucket with a hole cut in the center and held in place with an elastic strap.

Sounds good to me...

[LET-CA]

Is there any estimate of when these will be shipped? I'm getting as excited as a little kid at Christmas!

[steveb]

Gee thanks LET-CA! I had forgotten all about this group buy for about 5-10 min(Yea right) now im all excited again. Bring it on im ready to get castin!!!

[Poohgyrr]

Yeah. I've been gathering molds and equipment for a while, but this has me actually starting casting. I'm all set, and collecting more WW, to try this mold in .44 Levers. I really want to see how it does in my .44 Special M92 - the 44-40 has done well for a long time - a healthy bullet in the .44 Special should be fun. Then there is a matching 4" revolver to try. One way, or another...

[LET-CA]

Are we there yet?! Well?? I've always been bad at waiting for anything.

Gee thanks LET-CA! I had forgotten all about this group buy for about 5-10 min(Yea right) now im all excited again. Bring it on im ready to get castin!!!