Data From Old Manuals

[leadman]

Didn't know exactly where to post this so put it here.

A friend of mine called me and asked if I had an idea why the primers were "backing out" of his Topper 30-30 that he bought from me several years ago.
Seems he took a load from a 6/95 IMR Handloader's Guide and loaded the max amount of 3031. The load specs are 35.5 (compressed)grs. 3031, 150gr. Hornady, Rem.case, Rem 9 1/2 primer.
I told him that sounded like a heavy charge so checked the Hogdon website and it listed 31.1grs. 3031 with a 150 gr. bullet. I found the 31.1 gr. load in the 5/03 IMR Handloader's Guide also.

4.5 grs. is a big difference in a smaller case like the 30-30. I know he should not have loaded the max load, but started 10% lower. He also called me back and said their if a depression in the metal by the firing pin hole. Blown primer damage?

With access to the powder companies websites is might be a good idea to confirm any load data from older manuals to be safe.

[BIGGUNGOBOOM]

True, the older reloading books seem to have higher data then the current ones today. I have several old ones and always revert back to newer material to double check. I also go to the manufactures web site and check what they currently show as far as data. sounds to me that he was definitely pushing those loads and that's why he is having those problems. send him a link to the various reloading sites "IE Manufacture" so that he also has something to go by

[twotrees]

The standard for 30-30 with IMR 3031 has been for , years

150 gr j word----33 gr MAX

170 gr j word ----30 gr MAX.

Those go back to my manuals from the 60's.

Good Shooting.

[Bret4207]

While your friend should have started lower, I've seen cases where individual rifles max loads differ by as much as 10%, more than the difference in loads you mention. Your friend may have a short throat and a tight chamber, another identical rifle may have a long throat and generous chamber. I keep saying the variables stack up to make each gun a law unto it self. I learned that the hard way.

[bobk]

Actually, the pressure is likely not too high, or the case head would set back, and there would be no high primer. The cases would stretch right above the base, and probably come out in two pieces after a couple of reloads. It's probably an excess headspace problem caused by sloppy headspace, which seems really common. The easy solution is to back off the sizing die until the sized cases won't chamber, and then screw it back in small increments until it does chamber. This way you are headspacing on the shoulder, rather than the rim. Case life will improve, and no more high primers.

Bob K

[leadman]

This was my rifle at one time so I have a pretty good idea of the chamber and throat. The chamber gave no problem with headspace and the throat is long, longer even than my Contender carbine barrel. He did chronograph the load at just over 2,500 fps 15' from the muzzle. I haven't looked at his fired cases but will probably do so next week.
I shoot Contenders, Encores, and Topper/Handi rifles. It is common for the receivers to stretch with the break open guns when fired with a heavy load. This allows the primer to back out and if a heavy enough charge, the primer will flatten on the outside of the head of the cartridge.
I have an Encore Pro Hunter 28" 7mm Rem Magnum that does this in the summer with factory ammo. That is why I do not shoot it when temps climb over 100'.
Twotrees, those loads are over what is listed on the Hodgdon website for those combos.

[Rocky Raab]

I also think they are far too hot. The all-time classic (and eponymous) loads for the 30-30 and 3031 powder are:

170 gr - 30
150 gr - 31

That's 30 and 31 for 3031, in case anybody missed it.

[Throwback]

While your friend should have started lower, I've seen cases where individual rifles max loads differ by as much as 10%, more than the difference in loads you mention. Your friend may have a short throat and a tight chamber, another identical rifle may have a long throat and generous chamber. I keep saying the variables stack up to make each gun a law unto it self. I learned that the hard way.

Bret is quite right. My .44 mountain gun cannot be shot with maximum loads - its throats are tight. It shoots well but my maximums are always short of the manuals. My Desert Eagle (jacketed only here) can seemingly digest anything and operates best at maximum levels. My .35 Whelen while able to digest loads that are vastly superior to factory, must be worked up carefully. I made a slight change once to seating depth and got visible and unexpected pressure signs with a favorite load. Checking things out against my notes quickly showed me where the problem was.

[twotrees]

"The Hodgdon Data Manual No. 26 shows that 31.0 grains of IMR 3031 powder will drive a 150 grain bullet to a MV of 2184 fps, and 33.0 grains of IMR 3031 will drive a 150 grain bullet to a MV of 2364 fps."

"http://www.chuckhawks.com/30-30Win.htm"

That 33 gr load is the one I have been using in my son's 30-30 since I got it for him in 1976.

I will check, but I am sure that the Old Lyman manual I started loading with in the 60's was where I got that load from in the first place.

Good Shooting,

[Rocky Raab]

I didn't say those were the only loads, but that they were the CLASSIC loads. They are.

[leadman]

That was the point of this post. I found the 35.5gr. load in the IMR pamplet from June of 1995.
Some guns may digest this without a problem, my friends can't.
The lab guy from Alliant I spoke with recently on another issue said the piezeo method of measuring pressure in use now has revealed pressure spikes that the old crusher method could not.
There is an article in the May 2009 Shooting Times by Allan Jones formerly of Speer addressing this issue.

[threett1]

The better technology in the ballistics labs, the better info we have today. The measurements are so much more precise than they were even 5 years ago, therefore data is changing. I was given loads from a companies rep over the phone several years ago that is over the max today. We have to adjust.

[Junior1942]

If your friend can't follow directions he should sell his reloading gear before he damages his rifle, himself, or an innocent bystander at the range. Starting with the max load in any manual is the height of stupidity. You can tell him I said so, too.

[44man]

I have an old 1987 Speer manual that normally has some scary loads in it, way above modern manuals.
It shows a max load of 3031 as 33 gr for the 100 gr bullet and 32 gr for the 110 gr bullet.
It does not list a 3031 load for the 150 gr but for the 170 gr it has a max of 29.5 gr.
However, my IMR booklet does show 35.5 gr as max for the 150 gr.
Most of us look at all manuals before making a decision and approach the higher loads with caution, which is as it should be. Too many powders have had burn rate changes over the years although I do not believe any change has been made to 3031.
I agree that anyone that jumps right to the max load needs some training. With the internet and loads at our fingertips, there is no reason to look at old information.
I have complained mightily about even some guys here looking for velocity with no concern for accuracy. The fast bullet has never killed what it can't hit!
My surprise was that the old Speer book was about right for the 30-30.

[jsizemore]

When I started loading, everything I read said " when you get a new component in to load, you need to drop your charge back 10% and work up your load."
I took that to mean that when I got a new lot of boolits, primers, powder, etc., that I was to start over with my load development.
I think a lot of us forget that basic rule. Every noobie I get started in reloading, that's the thing I stress the most.
A half a thousandths increase in bullet diameter plus a thicker web in the case can run pressures out of sight.
If you load military brass that's thicker then commercial, the manual starting load is MAX in a military case. All you got to do is look.

[SwedeNelson]

leadman

I know its not the point of your post but get your friend to retire the old H&R topper.
My dad passed one down to me, a 20Ga./30-30 combo. Shot it for years with 150gr
J-bullets and 30gr. of 3031. Passed it on to my son that did the same thing. Last time we
got together to reload we found the same problem. The older toppers used a soft shotgun
frame with the thinking that the 30-30 was a low pressure round. He shoots a little 20ga.
out of it but no more 30-30's.

Swede Nelson

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Primers "Backing out" is not a pressure problem. Pressure smashes the primer FLAT but still in the pocket. For a primer to "Back Out" there must be SPACR for the primer to "Back OUT". Thus the case head is not heald firmly by the breach.
Probably the reloader is full length sizing and pushing the shoulder back to far for that chamber.
I have 2 44-40 SRC Winny 1892 rifles here and I segregate brass to each rifle as the chamber dimensions are not the same between the 2. I also ONLY nech size to limit case stretching with each firing. That is one of the blessings of straight wall cases. Bottleneck cases if not snugly chambered between shoulder and breech or bolt face have to do something UNDER Pressure to fill the gap and STRETCHING is the whats-a-gonna-happen.
Mike in Peru

[leadman]

NEF/H&R still makes the soft frame, called an SB1 for the shotgun and muzzlerloaders. The SB2 frame is heat treated for the rifles. This info is available on the NEF website. This gun is also a combo with the 20ga. barrel and the milled areas on the breech end of the barrel.
I did remind my friend of his errors concerning his loading of the max amount of powder. He is kinda hard-headed but I am sure he will not do this again. I will inspect the gun and cases next week.
I am glad that the majority of the replies to this thread are positive and recognize the fact pressure reading has become more precise and that data can be confirmed via the internet.
I was my intention to make people aware of the changes and how to deal with them to keep all safe.

[Junior1942]

Ask your hard-headed friend if he owned a race car would he drive it everywhere with the tach always on the red line.

[buck1]

If your friend can't follow directions he should sell his reloading gear before he damages his rifle, himself, or an innocent bystander at the range. Starting with the max load in any manual is the height of stupidity. You can tell him I said so, too.

Thats BASIC reloading 101.

Sometimes starting loads can be too hot for a given gun. Often I cant safely reach max book load. It could be the action streaching wile the case is froze to the bbl, creating head space issues?
I didnt look it up but that load sounds too hot by about 4-5 gr. IMHO..buck