Postell????

[indian joe]

Is the Lee 459 500 3R boolit considered a Postel?

No - its more pointy - LEE dont even call it a postell

Nobody tried harder than me with that boolit - I still have four molds - just love the big lube grooves and it will shoot long strings without cleaning - but its a fair weather thing - the slightest bit of wind and it goes unstable - usually at around 400 - 450 yards .

The best success I had with it was several years ago I loaded a batch of rounds and used the seating die to compress the charge (leaned on it some) deformed the nose to a less pointy shape and that lot shot ok - like most accidental discoveries I didnt realise till later (much later) what was going on.

There has been some chat on one of the threads lately about swaging boolits nose to shape and I am intend to go back and try this on the LEE 500.

[rfd]

IMHO, from personal testing, the lee 459-500-3r is inferior to the lyman 457132 for long range targets.

[GregLaROCHE]

I got the Lee 459 500 3R mould in the mail the other day. It just interested me to experiment with and with Lee’s inexpensive prices, why not I thought. I like the big grease grooves and the pointy olgive should allow me to seat it further out before it touches the lands and get a little more BP behind it. I wonder if a .45/70 case can pack enough BP behind it to do it justice. Maybe it’s better used in a .45/90 or .45/110.

[Bent Ramrod]

Gunlaker,

I found the mould at a gun show and picked it up as a souvenir. I’m an inveterate accumulator of moulds. I cast a batch of them and tried them off the bench at 600 yards in my Shiloh .45-70. I was surprised at how well it shot, given that the nose portion was kind of a loose fit in the bore, and the casting had the slight out-of-roundness that “serious shooters” object to. It grouped very comparably with my go-to boolit, the Paul Jones Creedmoor, in the limited testing I did. I blowtubed between shots.

It grouped better than a PJ “Money” boolit that I was testing around the same time. For some reason, the “magic” just isn’t there for me with the Money boolit. I was also playing around with a Lyman “Schmitzer” boolit, which did well in testing but didn’t shoot worth sour apples at a match. For worry that the Postell might similarly fail in the clutch, for grease groove loads I’ve pretty much stuck with the Paul Jones Creedmoor, which has always been totally reliable.

But I ought to cast up some more Postells for another round of testing. Maybe when the weather gets cooler.

[Chill Wills]

Here is a Ideal mold for the Postall. This version comes with a very undersized nose which I assume is to be shot dirty. Other early molds I am told have much closer boreride sections on the nose which I would imagine helps accuracy a lot.
BTW- the text in the picture should read "The Ideal 457-132 NOSE is too small to get support from the bore on its trip down the barrel."

[indian joe]

IMHO, from personal testing, the lee 459-500-3r is inferior to the lyman 457132 for long range targets.

Yeah you are right - wish it were not so but it are !!!

I formed a bad habit of shooting on calm days here (have enough acres I can go out and let em go anytime I get the chance)
On a calm day that LEE will fly straight and true out at least to 600yards from my sharps but give it a bit of wind (not a raging gale just a bit of wind) and it will go full profile sideways through the board at 500 yards. They will shoot about a 18 inch to 2 foot group and stay on the board which says to me the wobbles are only happening in the later stages of the trip.
Up close it shoots fine - the other mold I am using is a CBE 460-535 made for the Pedersoli barrels (I use a shortened version 460-466)

Heres a series of four three shot groups fired at 100yards from my 76 Uberti lever gun - cleaned after each three shot group - in each case the low shot is clean barrel then two shots dirty. Windage adjusted after the first group with the LEE 500
LEE is the lower two groups on the target and CBE is the two higher ones
One of my better days for sure!!! Black powder only!

[Lead pot]

Indian Joe,

A little off subject but I would like to know
I'm a fan of bottle necked chambers for the blackpowder rifles. Looking at that picture, is that a .45-75 ?
I been thinking using that chamber for a High Wall.
I would like to ask. By volume, not weight unless you use the same lot or granulation of powder out of the same can, how does it compare to the .45-70?

[ascast]

for OP - then there is POSTAL, which is a match shot on targets and scores are mailed to a central person for scoring, in a general description. Not so common these days.
good read this thread.

[William Yanda]

I believe a certain Captain J. C. Postell designed that boolit for long range target shooting with the .45-70 and had the Ideal Company make up the moulds.

Thanks for the info. I would have guessed that it was a boolet designed for long range matches conducted by mail. But I have been wrong before and most likely will be again.

[indian joe]

Indian Joe,

A little off subject but I would like to know
I'm a fan of bottle necked chambers for the blackpowder rifles. Looking at that picture, is that a .45-75 ?
I been thinking using that chamber for a High Wall.
I would like to ask. By volume, not weight unless you use the same lot or granulation of powder out of the same can, how does it compare to the .45-70?

Yes a 45/75
not much in it ! just now with 5FA goex (for easyness thats about the slippery'est powder I have on hand)
both cases fireformed not resized filled brimfull
45/70 RP = 85.6grains
45/75 Formed from 348 winchester brass 89.7 grains

The 348 makes a tough thick walled case
Difference between these two would have as much to do with chamber cut dimensions and brand of brass as anything else I think

I have had some fun with that 76 Uberti - it keeps surprising me - more tricky to shoot a string with than a SS - but if I pay attention it works nice - I shot the 535 grain in it a couple times - seemed ok but I figured the 20inch twist was a bit marginal for that - so I got that 460-466 mold from CBE (the original Winchester long range load was a 450 grain boolit over 90 grains of powder) single loaded of course

[Lead pot]

TNX. Joe.

I hear good things with that Uberti 76 in this caliber.
Do that rifle a favor and use this bullet http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=46-467L-D.png I sent Tom a print of this revised Lyman 457121PH a larger diameter to fit the .45 caliber rifle better. I use this bullet in my 95 Marlin and it will empty the tube as fast as I can lever it like the rifleman did in his movies using black powder loads.
And it will hit a 1224 yard iron more than it misses.

Or use this one for a little lighter recoil. http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...46-292LP-D.png

[indian joe]

TNX. Joe.

I hear good things with that Uberti 76 in this caliber.
Do that rifle a favor and use this bullet http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=46-467L-D.png I sent Tom a print of this revised Lyman 457121PH a larger diameter to fit the .45 caliber rifle better. I use this bullet in my 95 Marlin and it will empty the tube as fast as I can lever it like the rifleman did in his movies using black powder loads.
And it will hit a 1224 yard iron more than it misses.

Or use this one for a little lighter recoil. http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...46-292LP-D.png

\\

Thanks for the info .......

have a lookit these two - nose profile is almost identical to Toms!
335 grain and 405 grain modified from the LEE 459 -405 HB
flattened the nose to a .250 meplat and took the hollow base thingy off the base plug so's I could use wads under em - have not wrung either of these out yet but they shoot fine so far
the 405 grain is maximum length for my gun to magazine feed - any longer and the wad is going down past the shoulder of my 45/75 case - OA length is critical in the 76 !



So tell me the story on lube grooves? I dont like boolits with a bunch of those little skimpy grooves only because of its been difficult to get the lube to stay in all of em properly - BUT - there was talk of a boolit with big grooves (like the LEE boolits) distorting in flight because of the bigger grooves ----distortion under acceleration in the barrel made sense to me (why we MUST be sure all the grooves are filled properly with lube) but distort while in flight ? dunno about that -- whats youre thoughts ?

My CBE molds (460-535 PB and 460-466 PB) that I use for the longer range stuff I reckon are a copy of the Lyman 457 -132 but expanded to 460 Aka Trenk for the pedersoli barrels - that CBE design has nice sharp square lube grooves and it holds the lube easy - they also make a "Postell" (proper original postell profile) which I dont like - and didnt shoot as well for me - but its smaller diameter - might do fine in a tighter barrel - but it comes up short on lube too

I load my pointy boolits just kissing the rifling - one full lube groove exposed above the neck - 72 grains FFg (my powder - you would get 80 grains of Swiss in there ok) 45 thou HDPE wad ...................

[Lead pot]

Joe,

I think that the only thing that will deform the bullet is when it's in the bore and when it hits something solid.
Below are bullets cast in the same mould but different alloys. The setback and obturation starts at ignition.
Undersized bullets in relation with the bore makes a mess out of them.
I can take a money bullet like in this photo pan lube it, it fills the grooves better than a lube sizer will, run that lubed bullet through my swage press and change that ogive to a creedmoor type with out changing the lube grooves. The lube will hold the integrity of the grooves if the die is the proper size for the bullet shank. If the bullet is a lesser diameter in the shank the pressure will close the grooves. The same will happen in the rifle barrel.
I seldom shoot a GG bullet, only in my lever rifles. The 121 bullet with all the grooves I pan lube and it stays put. The round nosed with all the grooves is a PP bullet I use for hunting in my trapdoor.

Attachment 270184


LOL, sitting here watching the news I thought about your question of distortion of the bullet while in flight... Well I guess it could happen if it hits a hailstone LOL.

[indian joe]

Joe,

I think that the only thing that will deform the bullet is when it's in the bore and when it hits something solid.
I agree - but that is gonna deform more than the boolit eh!
Below are bullets cast in the same mould but different alloys. The setback and obturation starts at ignition.
Undersized bullets in relation with the bore makes a mess out of them.
again yes I always liked fat boolits (couple thou oversize is fine I reckon - never had problems with leading - I like soft alloys - dont like fancy lubes - have shot a softish GC boolit in my 348 @ 2350 FPS without problems - boolit fit is king with cast)

I can take a money bullet like in this photo pan lube it, it fills the grooves better than a lube sizer will, run that lubed bullet through my swage press and change that ogive to a creedmoor type with out changing the lube grooves. The lube will hold the integrity of the grooves if the die is the proper size for the bullet shank.
I wanna pick your brain on this. I plan to swage that LEE boolit till it will shoot
so
1) can I get enough leverage in a good O frame press? to do what you describe here if not what do I need to do it?
2) I make a size die to support the shank of the boolit at the size I need it finished at?
3) and a top die with the desired nose shape?
appreciate your thoughts here
If the bullet is a lesser diameter in the shank the pressure will close the grooves. The same will happen in the rifle barrel.


I seldom shoot a GG bullet, only in my lever rifles. The 121 bullet with all the grooves I pan lube and it stays put. The round nosed with all the grooves is a PP bullet I use for hunting in my trapdoor.

Attachment 270184


LOL, sitting here watching the news I thought about your question of distortion of the bullet while in flight... Well I guess it could happen if it hits a hailstone LOL.

You might not believe but I saw this - shooting a 55grain hornady SX in my 22/250 - full house loads - it was an absolute smackdown on 'roos, 200 to 350 yards was the deal and (for me) thats too far for reliable head shots - we were culling numbers not hunting - chest shot they would arch their back, jack up on tippy toes and flop over dead - dunno what the velocity was but that thing was hiking it - one night took a shot in light rain and saw that sx disintegrate in the scope when it hit a raindrop -seen it a couple other times when we hit a blade of grass - but a raindrop in mid flight ............

[Lead pot]

Yes you could do the ogive change in a good O press like the RCBS A-4 Big max or the Rockchucker with soft bullets but it would be a hard push using a loading press. You would be better off with the die in the blue press. That is a ons step nose form die in the Corbin swage press. But that die has 7/8X14 threads but you would have to change th base pin to attach it to the ram and manually drive the bullet out of the die with that die set. But a M die would do this with a good loading press.
I used some CH-4D dies doing this once in my Big max and split the die swaging a .45 semi wad cutter that was hard. I would use a nose form die with a base punch doing this. broke a toggle pin using the Rockchucker doing this also and that was about a 3/8 hard pin.
I shot some of those Hornady SX in my .22-250 around 3800 fps and they never hit the paper at 100 yards. But they sure left a trail that looked like smoke those SX bullets have a soft jacket and don't take the velocity over 3000 to well. The high rotation at that velocity is to much for the SX. They work better in the .222.

Attachment 270242

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Lead pot;5017901].
I shot some of those Hornady SX in my .22-250 around 3800 fps and they never hit the paper at 100 yards. But they sure left a trail that looked like smoke those SX bullets have a soft jacket and don't take the velocity over 3000 to well. The high rotation at that velocity is to much for the SX.

They work better in the .222.
Yeah read that before I bought them
my rifle is a Winchester model 70 = slower twist than most - 14" (I think) against 12 or less - it wont stabilise any of the heavy pills - 60 grain HP works but that is max - that twist could be why I got away with the sx
.....

[Bent Ramrod]

Putting a face to the name. Someone else apparently designed the boolit for the Georgia National Guard rifle team, but Postell and the team he captained did so well that the boolit was named after him.