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Thread: .303 Lee Enfield accuracy article.

  1. #41
    Boolit Buddy SCIBUL's Avatar
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    Stoats.
    Great shooting. I don't know your rifle very much but I know Vectan Ba10 powder.
    It is the most fastest french powder. Is is a fine one but it broke more good revolvers than other ones. ALWAYS use puff fillers if you plan to use it in your rifle and everything would be OK.
    Good shooting.

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Now for the kicker, A friend of mine was in England for a long range match and one match was at 1400 yards, if I remember right. Well the 303 beat everyone at the match! My guy was shooting a match grade 300 win mag that had done well at 1000 yards but the 303's took all the top places. Something about cone of fire and harmonics ???? All I know is that in 1972 my match grade #4 beat a lot of Garands at 600 yards.

  3. #43
    Moderator Emeritus JeffinNZ's Avatar
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    It is referred to as negative compensation. A relates to the whip and flex of barrel and action.

    Fast bullets get out when the barrel is still rising. Slower bullets get out when the barrel is topped out. At 'range' the slower bullets that launched at a higher arc end up landing on the same POI as the faster 'flatter' bullets.
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  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffinNZ View Post
    It is referred to as negative compensation. A relates to the whip and flex of barrel and action.

    Fast bullets get out when the barrel is still rising. Slower bullets get out when the barrel is topped out. At 'range' the slower bullets that launched at a higher arc end up landing on the same POI as the faster 'flatter' bullets.
    Just ran across an explanation of this in reynold's Lee Enfield book, while looking for something else.
    He mentions something about this compensation that I hadn't heard before, that the exact range were compensation kicks in can vary from one rifle to another and the specific examples he mentioned were found to reach full compensation at distances over 800 yards, then the effects of lower or higher velocity of individual shots once again became noticable.

    Since the acceptance standard for the SMLE allowed a 1 inch horizontal spread at 100 feet then 3 MOA is the least figure you could give for accuracy, the 1 1/2 inch vertical spread might be less at longer ranges in terms of MOA or even actual measurement inches, but this would not decrease the grouping horizontally so despite compensation the 3 MOA would remain the minimum number.
    As range beyond 600 to 900 yards increased the verticle spread would once again be governed by velocity deviations.

    Despite claims of consistency of Cordite propellant I've found that due to variations between lots and degradation in storage each lot was tested and the exact charge weight varied to give as close to the standard velocity as possible.
    The Ammunition pocketbook of 1925 says that the exact charge weight of a MkVII cartridge varied from 35 1/2 grains to 37 1/2 gr, with from 36-44 strands of Cordite.

    PS
    The loss of several British warships has been attributed to Cordite being nearly water proof, which was its most important feature earlier on. When a US ship took a torpedo hit directly on its magazine fire suppression systems and flooding prevented detonation of the magazine, while any fire in the magazine of a British ship practically garanteed detonation of the magazine.
    The US occasionally used Cordite in sealed cartridges for rapid firing guns of 5 inch or less but all main gun propellants were single base nitrocellulose.

    Several british and Japanese ships bew up at anchor with no enemy action at all. failure of positive ventilation systems allowed temperatures to climb to 125 degrees or higher, resulting in separation of nitrogylcerin from nitrocellulose the then unstabilized nitro detonating at the first shock.

    I've run across records of debates on continued use of Cordite which give many reasons why it should have been abandoned long before it was.
    Since britain had gone to great lengths to obtain full rights to the formula and paid no royalty, they saved money on manufacturing the propellant but not only lost ships but also crewmen and munitions factory workers by the thousands.
    Naval cannon using Cordite wore out their barrels at twice the rate of other guns, requiring ships pulled from duty to reline guns, and reducing the firepower they could bring to bear during bombardments.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master doubs43's Avatar
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    When I was in England back in the early - mid 1980's, a friend once stuck a stick of cordite in a post with it standing straight up. He lit a match to it and it burned like a quick fuse from one end to the other. Confined in a cartridge case, I'm sure the burn rate was different.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubs43 View Post
    When I was in England back in the early - mid 1980's, a friend once stuck a stick of cordite in a post with it standing straight up. He lit a match to it and it burned like a quick fuse from one end to the other. Confined in a cartridge case, I'm sure the burn rate was different.
    I used to make fuses for homemade fireworks using strands of cordite pulled from Dud rounds.
    I would lay the strands on a piece of masking tape with ends over lapping. The burn rate was slower than cannon fuse.

    Most any smokeless powder burns slower if not confined.

    Safety tests run on ammunition crates showed that if the top crate of a stack was set ablaze the cordite inside would simply burn like a rocket motor, cordite is among other things used in rocket motors of various sorts.
    If the middle crate of a stack was set afire the entire stack blew up like a bomb, in one test a crater 35 feet across was the result.
    An account I read of a fire at an ammunition storage facility told of .303 cartridge cases shooting into the air like bottle rockets.

    When cordite or other double base powders cook off in a magazine fire pressure builds up so quickly that even a battleships compartments act like a bomb casing.
    Rather than the few cubic feet of gases from a cartridge discharging there are millions of cubic feet of gases locked in the powder bags of a main gun's powder supply.
    The shear weight of the charge acts to confine the propellant on the bottom.
    Add to that the liquid nitrogylcerin that sweats out of the sticks when heat reaches 125 degrees and the ship became a floating bomb.

    Until effective fire suppression systems were developed any propellant could detonate after some exposure to fire, but even the best supression systems did little when cordite was involved, since it could ignite even under water.

    Besides single ships being destroyed the port Chicago disaster was in part due to cordite cargo being shiped to Britain. Mishandling of Torpex explosives set off the chain of events but the cargoes of cordite insured total destruction.
    In other WW2 disasters an entire convoy of transports in India loaded with cordite munitions exploded after hits on one or two ships berthed at the same docks.

    The records of the British Parlement mention many disasters at cordite factories, one reason production was spread out to smaller facilities, so at least some could remain in operation should the main plants go up.

  7. #47
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCIBUL View Post
    Stoats.
    Great shooting. I don't know your rifle very much but I know Vectan Ba10 powder.
    It is the most fastest french powder. Is is a fine one but it broke more good revolvers than other ones. ALWAYS use puff fillers if you plan to use it in your rifle and everything would be OK.
    Good shooting.
    I never use fillers -- that is a sure way to send pressures through the roof.

    I like Ba10, it is pretty and always burns completely, unlike Ba9 which I use as a substitute for Unique.

    Vectan powders have a good availability here, except the A-series. I would very much like to get hold of some A0, but the benelux importer does not carry it and I would have to order a whole box!

    I have also used quite a lot of Sp7 in 223 Remington. I could never get it to stop stringing vertically, and it didn't like bullets heavier than 55 grains -- it would very suddenly give high-pressure signs. I won't be buying it again unless I can find it extremely cheap, which is why I bought it in the 1st place.

  8. #48
    Boolit Buddy SCIBUL's Avatar
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    Vectan powders.

    Hello.
    I don't use Ba series anymore. My favorites for handguns are the A series. AS & A& are hard to beat in .45 and 9mm calibers. In 38, 357 and 44 I prefer the A0 that is also impressive in rifle cartridges with quiet loads. For full power loads I use Vihtavuori powders. Vectan SP are double base powders and I find they tend to foul badly. They don't like reduced load and the pressure increase very fast after the usefull charge. But that's another story and I don't want to pollute this post.

  9. #49
    Boolit Buddy
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    I tried some Sp3 for cast loads, but it was awful. I was getting the same velocity with less powder and more accuracy by using Ba9

  10. #50
    Boolit Master 1874Sharps's Avatar
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    Gentlemen,

    Thanks for the informative posts. I have learned much!

  11. #51
    Boolit Man
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    303 Lee Enfield accuracy article

    Jeff

    You are to be congradulated on your two articles. To say the least, it is obvious that you put a lot of effort in those two atricles.

    I have always been a big fan of the 303 Enfield rifles. I own several of them.

    My father served in WW I in the Canadian Army. He said they were issued the 303 Ross rifle. There were a lot of problems with the Ross rifle. My father said that they would go down the trench lines about 3 AM and find a Brit asleep and leave there Ross and take his Enfield.

    My brother was in the Battle Of The Bulge. He said that they had a Brit unit alongside them. He said that the Brits could fire as many rounds with the Enfields as they did with the M-1's.

    When I was in Korea, I was impressed with the Brits and there 303's

    I really enjoy casting bullets and shooting them in my 303 Enfields. A target rifle it is not, but, one heck of a great bolt action rifle. I have always said that if I had to go into combat and could only have a bold action rifle, my choice would be the 303 Enfield.

    Once again, thanks for all the effort you put into writing those two articles.

    Sailman

  12. #52
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I've often thought of pushing a stick of cordite into some unsuspecting persons cigarette. Just not sure if it would do any harm so I didn't.

    Jeff, great article!

    (I haven't forgotten you 6.5 mould. Work keeps interfering with my good intentions! This past week I was ill but now that I'm better I have to work the weekend - darn!)
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  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    I've often thought of pushing a stick of cordite into some unsuspecting persons cigarette. Just not sure if it would do any harm so I didn't.
    A stick or strand just burns like a fuse if not confined, plenty hot though with a good flare.

    I've read in a collection of letters from the frontlines of WW1 that they somehow used sticks of cordite as a substitute for matches, not sure how that worked, I never tried lighting one up by striking it like a match.
    The letter was a trooper asking a family member to mail him cartons of matches because they were hard to get.

  14. #54
    Boolit Mold
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    I recently bought a Lee Enfield mark III and I have heard some good things about them .. I like the rifle and its pretty accurate shooting 180 grain Winchester 303 rounds .. just curious .. this question is for anyone who has one .. do you like it ? and can you give me an idea of how good the rifles actually are ?

  15. #55
    Boolit Master
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    Looks like no one noticed your question.

    I have a very nice 1915 SMLE MkIII, but it took a lot of work to make it nice.

    The No.1 MkIII is not quiet as strong an action as the No.4 on average, but I'm pretty sure some are much stronger than others due to a fairly wide variance in the Nickel content of the Steel used for the action bodies.

    I'm a bit leery of post WW2 Ishapore rifles, those made after 1950 and before 1965 due to reported problems with the alloy used for action bodies during that time frame. A alloy listed as SWES 48 was substituted for the previous steel, and this resulted in a high number of failures in proof testing. To avoid wastage they cut back proof testing to a single dry case round rather than one dry and one oiled round. The alloy was changed again about 1965 when production of the 2A rifles began.
    Some vague mention by Ian Skenerton of Lithgow rifles converted to 7.62 NATO that failed testing having actions degraded by use of Carbon Steel rather than Chrome Nickel Steel lead me to believe some late production Lithgow receivers might be suspect, and I've seen complaints of late production Lithgow bolts warping due to faulty heat treatment.
    I've also seen more late production Lithgows with visibly damaged bolts than rifles of other makes.
    Lithgow didn't actually manufacture the rifle in WW2 they only assembled parts supplied by sub contractors during those years so they could concentrate on heavier weaponry.

    From the scattered and often contradictory information available I'd rather have a WW1 through early WW2 era SMLE than a post war example.
    There are so-called dispersal rifles finished out after WW2 by BSA that seem to be of high quality, at least mechanically.
    The pre WW2 Lithgows I've handled looked far better made and finished than those produced later on.
    Same goes for the Indian rifles.

    I'd avoid using any ammo that doesn't meet SAAMI standards (45,000 CUP-48,000 PSI).
    I'd also avoid old Milsurp ammo, since much of it has hangfires and misfires and some may be downright dangerous.

    Hand loading is the better option. Keep pressures low out of respect for the rifle's age.

  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    .. this question is for anyone who has one .. do you like it ? and can you give me an idea of how good the rifles actually are ?
    It's a mixed bag. I would say it's a great battle rifle and as a sporter is capable of pretty good accuracy. It has its faults. never rely on the SMLE or No.4 safety catch. While the safety catch itself won't fail, it takes nothing to accidently flip it off! It does have character of its own and is quite a slick action. As for 'good'? That's subjective really. I like them and have quite a few. The very old ones were good - the NoI MkI's. I have one or two 1896 models and a 1902 MkI. One of them has an original carbine barrel still in good condition but cordite modified to a taper bore.
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  17. #57
    Boolit Bub
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    Great information here. Thanks Jeff. I grew up shooting Lee Enfields, as did most other hunters and target shooters I knew. The male members of my family almost worshipped them.

  18. #58
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    No.1MkIII*

    I enjoyed your tutorial very much! I have 2 LE's. One is a No.4 MkII and the other is a No.1MkIII*. I have rebarreled my No.4 with a new BSA barrel I got from Springfield Sporters about 20 years ago. I have also bedded the stock as per drawings in the Riflleman from the early 70's.

    The question I have is; were there ever any accurising and bedding data specific to the No.1 MkIII*? The one I have is a 1942 Lithgow I bought back in the late 80's that is excellent+ overall with a perfect barrel. I would like to be able to do what ever is neccessary to bring it up to "match" specifications if possible.

    Have a good one and thanks so much for this wonderful site..........RayT

  19. #59
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    This is a semi famous quote "The Germans built a hunting rifle, The Americans built a target rifle and the Brits built a battle rifle"Refers to Mauser 98. Springfield 03 and the Lee Enfield

  20. #60
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter6br View Post
    This is a semi famous quote "The Germans built a hunting rifle, The Americans built a target rifle and the Brits built a battle rifle"Refers to Mauser 98. Springfield 03 and the Lee Enfield
    That sums it up nicely.

    The O.P. is great information.

    This is a wonderful resource for the 303 as well.
    http://www.303british.com/

    I have a number of 303 rifles, Even those with over a hundred years of abuse are still reliable and fine shooters when you make sure you match the bullet to the bore.

    My M10 Ross rifle has a true .311 bore and shoots .313 bullets into 1.5 inches at 100 metres with the military sights ( Lyman 407467 loverin design). I have never shot it with jacketed bullets. It was a true target rifle that made it into WWI as a result of politics. Tight chambers and close tolerances cost many lives when it jammed with loose tolerance brit ammo and the mud of France.

    My CDN issue No. 4 Longbranch will give 2" groups at 100 metres with I.V.I. (made in Quebec Canada) ammo. The local Ranger Group 303s are usually capable of groups under 3" with military ball ammo.

    Having shot several thousand rounds of ball ammo from a No. 4 over the past ten years I am impressed with the 303 and think it is the best bolt action battle rifle ever built. The weakest part of the gun is the extractor spring. I have had two break in ten years. At least half of the 25 303 No. 4s in the patrol have had the extractor spring break.
    These rifles are slated for replacement in the near future (Military time could mean next year or possibly ten or fifteen years) . The caliber will be 308 - no one knows the platform.
    Under current CDN government policy they will be destroyed rather than surplussed out to pay off government debt. That is a heart breaker.

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