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Thread: .303 Lee Enfield accuracy article.

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master







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    Great thread. Have always considered the 303 Enfield to be a truely ugly rifle, but finally bought a SMLE that has probably been reworked more than once. Ugly it is compared to my other Milsurps, but it has a personality all of its own. Kind of like a stately old lady. Have started wringing it out with cast, and have been quite supprised at what I have been able to get so far. Started at 25 on an NRA pistol target: All in the black. 50 yds, all in the black. 100 yds, 8 of 10 in the black. 165gr. Lee sized .314, Lar's red canuba, over 13 gr. Red Dot. Having a limited amount of brass, and not wanting to load anything but American Primers with only one flash hole, testing will be a prolonged process. It most definately has a place in my Milsurp rack along with Swiss, Sweds, Russians, etc. Battle proven, and that is what counts. Thanks Jeff!
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  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy AzShooter's Avatar
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    Great artical but can you givd me a little advice on my 303?

    The barrel mikes out to .316. I ordered a mould for it that came from Austrailia and casts a 220 grain plain base bullet at .316. I'm still trying to find a decent load. Everything I've tried tumbles. Am I going too slow with these loads? I've used Red Dot and Unique.

    I ask here because you seem to know so much about this rifle Jeff.
    Go ahead and run. You will only die tired

  3. #23
    Moderator Emeritus JeffinNZ's Avatar
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    AZ - You are on the right track with the .316 bullet. Shoot it fat as you can; ie: don't size at all, just seat the gas check and lube. I like to shoot H4227, 20gr under my 205gr bullet (1640fps) and have also had go results with the big 240gr bullet over 23gr Benchmark (1500fps). For a top end load I have great success with 41gr H4350 under the 220gr bullet for 2000fps neat; WW is oven heat treated for this load but your plain base may not tolerate this sort of load.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzShooter View Post
    Great artical but can you givd me a little advice on my 303?

    The barrel mikes out to .316. I ordered a mould for it that came from Austrailia and casts a 220 grain plain base bullet at .316. I'm still trying to find a decent load. Everything I've tried tumbles. Am I going too slow with these loads? I've used Red Dot and Unique.

    I ask here because you seem to know so much about this rifle Jeff.
    You need that boolit to have larger diameter, by saying that your barrels mikes out at .316" diameter I'm sure you mean by that groove diameter.

    Your boolit ideally needs to be at least .317" diameter, try Beagling the mould.

    Tumbling is almost always boolit fit assuming that the barrel is good for its length especially at the muzzle.

    Have you taken a barrel slug at the muzzle and one at the chamber?


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  5. #25
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    Off topic, but...

    On one of the Krag forums a fellow was wondering how in the world a Krag rifle was brought back from the Pacific by a WWII GI. Also, along the same vein there was one wondering how a Krag got to New Zealand. Here's a possibility for the second scenario.
    Last edited by madsenshooter; 08-28-2010 at 09:20 PM.

  6. #26
    Boolit Man
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    303 help

    I Finally got a good look at my 303 and slugged it. Groove measures at .315. I also noticed it only has 2 rifling groves, is this normal? What mold should I be looking at? Thanks for this sticky by the way.
    You always think you have enough Boolets, until the Zombies come.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master

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    That sounds about right. A bunch of them had two lands also.
    The .303 British is great one to paper patch for. I am serious here.
    With your dimensions, if you size to .308, then two wraps of lined notebook paper, you will get .317. If you get Lee to cut you a .306 Push Thru Sizer, you will have a great casting.
    I am useing full house loads of 4895 under the Lee .303 mold.
    Reliable 10 ring at 100yds with the bedding shown at the beginning of this article.
    I have done that bedding on my SMLE, and my two Ishapores. All take to paper patching.
    The 7.62 also behaves quite nicely.
    By the by. The Williams SMLE reciever sight also fits the Ishapore.
    That makes a big difference!

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy
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    OK, Stoat's results with the 1950 Long Branch No.4 Mk. 1*!



    All at 50m, prone, rested, iron sights, with the No.4.

    Top: Lee 314-90-SWC, Vectan Ba10 (Euro Bullseye equivalent): 3.0, 3.3, 3.6
    Bottom: Lee TL312-160-2R, Ba10: 6.0, 6.3, 6.6, 6.9

    "Best" groups: 90gn / 3.3 Ba10 - 5 MOA centre-to-centre 100%;
    160gn / 6.3 Ba10 - 3.6 MOA 100%; 2.5 MOA 90%; 2.5 MOA 80%; 2.1 MOA 70%

    Interesting group: 160gn w 6.6gn Ba10: 1.3MOA wide, 4.4 MOA high 100%; 2.8 MOA high 90%; 2.4MOA 80%.

    Given that I am tired and ill and shot these at a fair old pace, I am quite happy with the 160gn bullets & 6.3 & 6.6 gn Ba10 groups.

    I shot the groups at 50 and not 100 because I really didn't know how it would go and I wanted some results at all, and once I'd started at 50 I had to finish them all there to directly compare the results.

    Other interesting points from someone shooting gnat's fart loads for the 1st time:

    - The 90gn 3.0Ba10 load was as quiet as an airgun, and I swear I could see the bullet go downrange. There was almost no recoil at all, which was very very odd.

    - There's lots of black filth in the bore, but no perceptible leading.

    - Burnt Alox smells nasty

    - No real difference in POI between the various loads at 50m

    - 6 o'clock hold on these targets at 50 needs the sight set to 700yds; same hold at 100 (I had 5 left over to test) needs 800yds on the slide.

  9. #29
    Boolit Buddy
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    Cast Lee 160gn 312 (nominally 313) in the No.4, 6.4gn Vectan Ba10 (just subsonic) @ 100m, L & centre rested, R effect of sling (sight set as per centre card):



    All measurements Centre-to-Centre:

    Left: 100% - 2.8 MOA, 90% - 2.8; 80% 2.1

    Centre: 1st shot way out of group... 90% - 2.5; 80% - 1.4

    Right : sling supported so less interested...

  10. #30
    Boolit Mold
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    303 mk4 #1

    I found your artical very informative . I just started getting in to old battle rifles 3 years ago after I had to retire. I found 1943 long branch with a pristine bore and found it to have ex accuracy for what the intent was. I will take it hunting any time hope to get a deer with it this year using the iron sites. Thanks!!!! Gray Ghost
    ps.moson nagants are ex to got 4 short and long

  11. #31
    Boolit Man dukenukum's Avatar
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    I have a #5 jungle carbine that has a .308 bore yup that is .308 . I use a Lyman 308329 mold , Yes the zero wanders a bit but not to bad .
    http://adventuresinopencarr.blogspot.com/
    even my cat has a gun
    Trust in GOD and the Mauser.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master C1PNR's Avatar
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    Smile

    I just very recently joined the SMLE owners club. Mine is a #1 MK III* make by BSA in 1917 which saw some service, at least, in Australia.

    Everything on it looks good, just haven't slugged the bore or shot it yet. Need to rectify that condition.
    Regards,

    WE

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukenukum View Post
    I have a #5 jungle carbine that has a .308 bore yup that is .308 . I use a Lyman 308329 mold , Yes the zero wanders a bit but not to bad .
    just checking, but you do know that you can't just put the slug in a micrometer and measure it due to the 5-groove barrel? If you do that, they do tend to come out at around .308", but that doesn't actually tell you anything useful.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzShooter View Post
    Great artical but can you givd me a little advice on my 303?

    The barrel mikes out to .316. I ordered a mould for it that came from Austrailia and casts a 220 grain plain base bullet at .316. I'm still trying to find a decent load. Everything I've tried tumbles. Am I going too slow with these loads? I've used Red Dot and Unique.

    I ask here because you seem to know so much about this rifle Jeff.
    1) Your gas check may be undersize for the bore.
    2) I have had bullets tumble from several of my 303 No4 rifles. A quick and dirty recrowning with a lee case trimmer, electric drill and light oil cured one of them. I took 0.01" off the end of the barrel to get a good crown.
    3) If your bore is 0.316" your bullet should be 0.317" or larger. also try using gas checks for the 7.92x57 mauser.
    4) Check the diameter of the nose bearing surface of the bullet as well. The nose of the bullet has to be a SNUG fit in the bore or the bullet will wobble as it goes down the bore and it WILL tumble.
    The nose of the bullet should fit snug to really snug in the bore. Cut the nose off a bullet and pass it through the bore.
    5) clean the copper fouling out of your .303 bore before you slug it or shoot cast bullet. Use Brake Clean and then give it a 24 hour soak in household ammonia then rinse with hot water.
    you can build a bore rinsing unit using a 303 empty with the head cut off and one of those cheap ($1.99) chinese hand showers that attach to your kitchen fawcet.
    Do not get brake clean or ammonia on the stock - it will remove an oil finish.
    DO Dry the bore immediately with patches and run an oily patch down the bore once dry or it will rust.

    Several .303s I have done this to did show tighter groups afterward.
    Groups in my Ranger issue 303 dropped from 4" i to 1.5". after two shots to foul the bore.
    Also before I cleaned the bore, one or two shots would be flyers - flyers disappeared after a cleaning. Group sizes also dropped after removing 0.01" from the crown to get to reasonably good rifling.

    I have various incarnations of 303 that I shoot cast, factory, and current Canadian issue (I.V.I 1992) ammo through including Martinis, Lee Metfords, P14s, No.1 No.4, and No. 5 rifles.
    Not to mention several M10 Ross rifles.

    Our local Canadian Ranger patrol group has 22 No. 4 Long branch rifles issued to them as well.
    These rifles have seen limited military service and are usually in excellent shape. With cleaning and a bit of attention to reassembly most will easily shoot a 2-3" group at 100 metres. There are several that are capable of 1.5" or less using I.V.I ball and the issue sights. There have also been a couple that have been returned as it is easier to get a new gun than frig with one that has an issue. I strongly suspect most of the accuracy problems arise from rifling problems the last few inches of the bore.
    Also some batches of I.V.I. will give larger groups than others in some rifles.
    We are issued 100 rounds I.V.I. 150 grain ball or 180 grain soft point.
    60 rounds are kept in reserve and the rest can be used for practice. There is no limit on how often we can go to replenish the forty rounds. Both ammo and brass are the property of the taxpayers of Canada and empty brass is turned in. Sale of either will result in a discharge and a criminal record.
    There is no mention of how many times the brass can be reloaded and fired in other 303s before being turned in. It was hinted that cast bullets and reloads were NEVER to be used in Issue rifles.

  15. #35
    Boolit Buddy m.chalmers's Avatar
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    A group buy that will fit your needs
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=45907

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy
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    Yesterday, Lee 160gn TL, plain base, 6.4gn Vectan Ba10, 1.25MOA!:



    OK, it's only 5 shots, but anyhoo......

  17. #37
    Boolit Master doubs43's Avatar
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    Some 20 years ago, when my eyes still permitted me to use open sights reasonably well, I owned a 1939 BSA #1 Mk III rifle. It had a bore that had been shot... a lot! However, it was the most evenly worn bore I think I've ever seen and was perfectly clean. It shot lights out with cast bullets!

    Going strictly from memory - always dangerous - I was using a 165 grain GC bullet sized .001" over groove diameter and 21.5 grains of AA-1680. At 100 yards it would consistently beat 2 MOA and frequently flirt with 1 MOA. Those were 5 shot groups from sandbags. Many times I've regretted selling that rifle but anyone who has been buying and selling guns for as long as I have will sing a similar tune about more than one gun.

  18. #38
    Boolit Man dukenukum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoats View Post
    just checking, but you do know that you can't just put the slug in a micrometer and measure it due to the 5-groove barrel? If you do that, they do tend to come out at around .308", but that doesn't actually tell you anything useful.
    A gunsmith helped us with that job since it was my first time slugging a barrel.
    http://adventuresinopencarr.blogspot.com/
    even my cat has a gun
    Trust in GOD and the Mauser.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    I was lucky enough to find a actual .311 bore MkIII, undersized according to the SAID drawings specs.
    I'll be using 311 gas check bullets, probably straight wheel weight alloy.

    The only real problem with oversized bullets is if the chamber neck doesn't have enough clearance, usually not a problem with .303 chambers, but built up carbon and lead blowback often infiltrates around the caseneck and can form a thick hardened layer thats hard to distinguish from the chamber surface due to lead and graphite leaving a shiny surface. I've cleaned several chamber necks with a scrapper made from thin brass tubing. Its awesome the amount of crud that can build up there. What comes out looks at first like black plastic shavings then a granular metalic layer that comes out looking like pencil lead shavings.

    Depending on the manufacturer and year .303 ammo can have sealants that vary from resinous beeswax to thick black asphaltum. Since propellants only produce as much oxygen as they use additional sealants and such don't burn away, no oxygen no oxidation. Instead these materials combine into agregates that become vitrified and nearly as hard as rock. Add to that atomised lead from exposed bullet bases and metalic fouling and you can see why they kept chambers on the loose side.
    A chamber brush can keep this stuff from building up, but few troops in the field had the leisure time necessary for more than a quick pull through.

    Cleaning away corrosive salts with water sounds easy enough but using from two to six pints of hot water per rifle when they had a hard time supplying the troops with drinking water and building a fire would be an invitation for snipers and mortar teams meant few rifles were cleaned within days or weeks of being fired.
    Rifles given to resistence fighters and native levies might never be cleaned at all unless confiscated by police years after the end of a war.

    So be sure the chamber neck has enough clearance, bullets begin to bump up before they leave the neck so theres some expansion room necessary before gas obturbation takes place.

    Quote Originally Posted by doubs43 View Post
    Many times I've regretted selling that rifle but anyone who has been buying and selling guns for as long as I have will sing a similar tune about more than one gun.
    You know it brother.
    I had a Krag Carbine many years ago, otherwise very good condition but the bore was badly eaten way under a thick layer of cupro-nickel fouling. I made a small profit on it selling it to a collector who promised he wouldn't try to fire it.
    Then back in the nineties someone made a run of Krag replacement barrels.
    Rebarreling would have trashed its collector value no doubt, but it would have still been worth more than I would have had in it, and I'd surely like to have salted that ol girl away for better days.
    Last edited by Multigunner; 12-16-2009 at 04:32 AM.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master doubs43's Avatar
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    The only Enfield I presently own is a #1 Mk III made by London Small Arms (LSA) in 1916. I was given it for Christmas in 1960 and it cost $9.95 plus $1.95 for the bayonet from "Ye Olde Hunter" of Alexandria, Virginia. I also ordered 100 surplus cartridges with it. The bore is excellent.

    On Christmas day, 1960, I sat a soup can on the side of a railway embankment at a distance of about 175 yards. I was 17 and had the eyes of a hawk. Using a fence post, I squeezed off a shot and my father, watching through binoculars, said I hit a few inches to one side. I corrected my aim and the second shot was dead center.

    About 20 years ago I shot some groups using the same 165 grain gas check bullet that I used and reported in my first post about the 1939 BSA Enfield. At 100 yards, the rifle shot consistent 1.5 MOA groups and I had one target that I kept for years..... 5 shots in about 3/4 of an inch. I still own the rifle and it's about the last gun I'd ever let go. I replaced the magazine cutoff and also installed an early rear sight with windage adjustment.... pretty much as it may have been originally issued.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check