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Thread: Gas Check Boolits without Gas checks ???

  1. #61
    Boolit Master badbob454's Avatar
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    Exclamation good post! i agree completley

    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207 View Post
    I'll give you my understanding, it'll be in simple terms and is only my opinion.

    Yes, there is a need for gas checks once you pass a certain point. That point varies from load to load and gun to gun, even ambient temp can affect it so your summer load might need it and your winter load not.

    Obturation is an iffy thing, sometimes it happens and good results follow, other times it happens and bad things follow. Same for when there is no obturation. In a perfect world the would be no obturation- the boolit wild precisely fit the throat area and the powder would gently start the boolit down the barrel without distortion. That's why Harry Pope and Zischang and Schoyen and all the other old time lead boolit shooters used a false muzzle and muzzle loaded their guns. Most of us won't do that. We prefer fixed ammunition, so we try and hit a happy medium.

    Different powders, primers, case shapes, throat shapes, seating depth, alloy, boolit design and size , rifling type and condition, even ambient air pressure can cause variations in the burn rate and pressure curve of a given load. SOME plain based boolits in SOME guns will be extremely forgiving of all those variables and will tend to shoot good up to somewhere around 2000 fps. At least those are the claims that have been made. You will occasionally hear of someone who gets 22-2300 fps for 5 shots or so. If this is true, these guys shouldn't even bother picking up a lottery ticket, they've used all their luck up!

    In an average rifle those variables will stack up in a seemingly random order and usually limit your plain base shooting to under 1600 in general no matter how good a fit you have. That 1600 fps can be 1200 in some guns, 1700-1800 in others, larger calibers tend to be more forgiving. If, IF you go to a slower powder, a harder alloy, maybe a little larger boolit and a super lube and a filler you can up the speed. Maybe. It might work one day and not the next.

    In handguns the PB generally works up to 11-1300 fps given good fit, etc as with rifles. Cartridges like the 45ACP can be used at factory velocity with PB with little problem, same for the 32 ACP and 380 ACP. Low pressure! Take a 9mm and you're good to a certain point and then it's lead city. Same for the 38, 357, 40S+W, 44 Special and Mag and of course the any of the other hotter rounds. Pressure seems to be the bad guy here and to me at least, it seems to work a little differently in handguns than in rifles.

    A gas check just makes achieving higher velocity at a higher pressure easier. IMO boolit bases do not, and have never "melted". There isn't time enough , even under the pressures involved, for the heat transfer to take place. IMO what happens at the base is that the pressure pushes the lead around and like a rock thrown in mud there is some splashing. The rougher and weaker the base and alloy the more splash. Lead alloy is ductile and if you've ever hit an ingot with a hammer you can see that you don't get a smooth surface when you've hit it. I believe this takes place and the "splashed" particles are minute, maybe microscopic in size even.

    The same general theory goes for the sides of the boolit once it's moving- only now you have hot gases trying to rush past the boolit through any gap between boolit and barrel. The alloy doesn't "melt", the gases abrade the boolit surface (and of course a rough barrel can help this happen too) and the particles of alloy are blown onto the barrel surface and pressed on by pressure. At least that's my understanding. There can also be the instance of lube failure where the alloy is actually rubbed into the barrel surface. I call it lube failure, but it may actually be something else.

    So what does the GC do?

    1- Provides a scraping action to the barrel. The edge of the check theoretically scrapes lead from the boolit ahead of it away from the barrel.

    2- Provides a seal of sorts in a properly sized gas check/barrel interface. An undersized gas check is a waste of money. What the tolerance is depends on the gun and load, but as a general rule I want my checks at least bore size and preferably closer to groove size. If the check is under bore size it's effect is drastically reduced, may not work at all and is wasted money.

    3- Provides a much stronger base to the boolit and one that remains square throughout the boolits journey up the barrel. This I've seen- seat a check crooked and shoot several groups with crooked checks and square checks. It don't take a genius to see the difference.

    4- Makes achieving higher velocities at higher pressures EASIER. That doesn't mean the sky is the limit. There comes a point where the alloy can't take the pressure/velocity/rifling anymore and you get leading and wild shooting. But the GC makes it easier to go faster using pressure to boost speed.

    That's my understanding at this point. 10 years ago I had a different opinion, 20 years ago it was different than that! I used to think hard, hard, hard!!! I thought that would solve all the problems. Not so. A GC won't solve it all either, but it does reduce the variables in most cases.
    i agree completely with this good post..... couldn't have said it better myself

  2. #62
    Boolit Bub
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    I ran into a real time consuming situation this winter trying to reload lubed (powder sticking to lube) 240gr Lee gas check designed cast boolits that I did not gas check wanting to load from start to mid-range velocities.
    Reason for not gas checking was I have a new 44 special & 44 mag that I want to start with slow load development stages and get used to prior to full strenght loads.
    I ended up hand cleaning the lube from all the Lee cast non-gas checked bootlit bands by hand prior to loading. I've since looked into Lee Alox Lube push through sizing and lube set-up possibly their cast boolit design to follow.

  3. #63
    Boolit Master



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    I'm just starting to play with 200 gr. GC boolits and no checks. The gun is a Japanese type 99 and my alloy is 2/1 lino to WW. Like many others here, I'm cheap! Gas check cost is getting way out of line.

    I have yet to actually go out and shoot as our weather is barely getting to the tolerable stage, but I've been wondering......

    When you think about it, exactly WHAT is the difference between a GC boolit without the check....and a standard .22 with a heeled boolit? Not much really, yet we expect to pick up a box of .22 rimfire and immediately pop squirrels out of the tree with little effort. Assuming the right alloy is used in our cast boolit and the velocity within reasonable limits, you should be able to do the same with your home brew loads.

    Just theory.........................

  4. #64
    Boolit Mold Tallyman's Avatar
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    Lithium Grease

    I put a dab of lithium (automobile wheel bearing) grease on the base of each lead rifle bullet. I keep my velocities under 1800FPS, but have read where higher velocities can be achieved.

    I use bullets lubed with liquid ALOX and add the lithium grease just before I seat the bullet in the case.

    Extended shooting is no problem. I clean the barrel with a few patches soaked in Hoppes No. 9 and the barrel wipes out clean.

    AND NO LEADING!!

  5. #65
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    It is my understanding, that there should never be any oil or grease in the case, as it will damage the powder.

  6. #66
    Boolit Mold Tallyman's Avatar
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    Anyone who loads reduced velocity cast bullet RIFLE loads KNOWS to top off the powder with a tuft of polyester balled up and pressed in over the powder. This keeps the powder packed against the primer for consistent ignition and acts as a contamination insulator. It burns up 100% in the combustion process.

    Lithium grease remains a solid until it reaches a very high temperature. If you store your ammo in an environment hot enough to melt the lithium grease, powder contamination will be the least of your problems!

    If you are really concerned, store your loaded ammo in a refrigerator with the bullets facing down.

    Please note. . .I use lithium grease only in cast bullet rifle loads - have never tried it in handgun loads.

    Try a few loads. . .you will be amazed at the results.

  7. #67
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    Thanks for the tip I haven't gotten to reload rifles yet.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3006guns View Post
    I'm just starting to play with 200 gr. GC boolits and no checks. The gun is a Japanese type 99 and my alloy is 2/1 lino to WW. Like many others here, I'm cheap! Gas check cost is getting way out of line.

    I have yet to actually go out and shoot as our weather is barely getting to the tolerable stage, but I've been wondering......

    When you think about it, exactly WHAT is the difference between a GC boolit without the check....and a standard .22 with a heeled boolit? Not much really, yet we expect to pick up a box of .22 rimfire and immediately pop squirrels out of the tree with little effort. Assuming the right alloy is used in our cast boolit and the velocity within reasonable limits, you should be able to do the same with your home brew loads.

    Just theory.........................
    to expound on that theory , we stuff a soft lead conical over a pile of powder and drive 400gr conicals 1600-1800 fps form 50 cal muzzle loaders all the time

    some 45 cal conicals leave the bore nearing 2200 still no leading

    some are hollow base some are plain base

    some get better accuracy with a filler of cream of wheat over the powder

    but in general good fit , some lube , slower powder , and we do get the added benefit of putting the rifling on the boolit during loading

    i even shot some Lee R.E.A.L's rifling engraved at loading with no lube on them this last winter , i had a pocket of them i intended to lube as i shot but alternating patched round ball then lee real i had no problem loading them or any leading , i even broke all the "rules" and cast them from strait air cooled wheel weight.

    now i didn't put many of these on paper , several into the gong but not any extensive accuracy testing and all were fired off hand

  9. #69
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post

    The bullet.


    I should stress that this is still early days!
    wow no lube grooves at all very interesting

  10. #70
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    All, I primarily shoot homemade CB's with GC's in all of my rifle calibers except the .45-70. However, I've also been experimenting with PB CB's, e.g. the group buy Lee 30-150-TL as well as a few GC designs minus the GC. What I've learned thus far is that bullet fit, powder charge, pressure, and velocity have major effects on accuracy. E.g., with the .30cal. Lee TL CB, 7.5gr. Hodgdon Clays or 8.7gr. Alliant Unique will produce excellent accuracy and virtually no leading @ 50yd. (CB's lubed with Lee Liq. Alox). Btw, those CB's shoot as well "as cast," but sorted to remove obviously flawed ones, as they do if "sized" to .314" and lubed with Felix Lube.

    As for shooting GC CB's naked, I've tried it, but wasn't satisfied with the lack of accuracy that ensued. That may have been my fault because I may have driven them too fast and because I gave up after a few unsatisfying tests. I.e., I don't want generalize based on a small sample. In spite of that failed experiment, I recently tried testing 3 different CB designs without GC's with generally favorable results.* The CB's were Lee #311291, Lee C-309-180-R, and Saeco #315. However, I didn't load and shoot them "as cast," but tapered them in a Hanned (Ed Wosika) Die.** Said die will expand the noses to .302", bodies to .3095", and entirely remove the GC shank, leaving a perfectly flat base. The Lee and Saeco CB's, especially the latter, performed very well with light powder charges, but not the Lyman. E.g., 19 out of 20 (1 flyer, entirely my fault) of the tapered Saeco 315's went into 1" x 1 3/8" @ 50yd. using 8.7gr. Unique and no filler of any kind. Although these were not strictly unchecked GC CB's, they were astoundingly accurate and something I'll certainly try again.


    *Rifle was a Win. Mod. 70 Westerner (blind magazine), .30-06.

    **I bought the tapering die, custom tailored to my rifle's throat because neither the Lee C-309-180R nor the Lyman #311291 fit my rifle. The Lee cast too small in both the body and nose (.299") while the Lyman had an undersized nose (.2985"). Gas checked and tapered via the Hanned Die, both designs shot into 1 moa, whereas before the dispersion was 2x - 4x as large.

  11. #71
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    I was driving some c309-170rf at 1700-1800 today with 7 grains of grits filler and 25 gr h4895
    but it did open up, however no leading

  12. #72
    Boolit Buddy Bulltipper's Avatar
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    OK, so I have to ask. If I am dedicated to shooting a subsonic .30 cal rifle boolit, and it is a gas check design- and I don't put a gas check on... At 1100 fps or lower, will I have an excessive cutting or leading issue or will this boolit behave like a boat tail and perform as such? I ask as I am shooting thru a suppressor and am looking for a boolit that will perform properly and expand without having to semi jacket swage up some custom stuff...
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  13. #73
    Boolit Buddy windrider919's Avatar
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    I have seen leading at velocities as low as 700FPS.

    But the bullet was .347 in a .355 bore.

    And I have shot lead bullets, NO lube and NO gas check as fast as 1800FPS...20 shots and had no leading. The alloy was WW + 2%tin and water quenched. the bullets were sized .460 and shot in a .458 barrel.

    Note that the .460 bullets also had a .040 PE wad under them.

    Velocity is not the primary factor in leading, bullet fit is.

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  14. #74
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    Bull tipper
    My plinker load for me 30-30 is a lee 170fp.Gc with no GC
    Leemented so the nose engraves on my gun which is a big big in the bore.
    I use 3.5 4 grains dunno a 22 mag shell cut down of bulleye and a tuft of darcon.
    tumble lubed with alox and seated til the bullet engraves the lands.
    Has been chrono-ed to 950 fps.

    I regularly get 1" groups at 100yrds and a hand span at 300
    Less if I use premium cast and pay attention to the wind....on a good day.
    I have used bees wax and lithium greese but it is messy to play with.

    I most use me duds for this load with rounded bases or not filled out necks.

    My twist is 1:12 it does show signs of wobbling but shoots good enough.

    I fit it to my bore and +1-2 thou over groove.

    When I get frustrated I'll hit the 300 mtre gong most the time. Flight time is about 1.5 seconds.
    Bang ..wait for it..ting
    Gong is a 18" disk in a tire.

    I think cast would be the ticket.

    A teardrop shape is the sub sonic shape to persue.
    I 've heard of loading backwards for long range but never tried it.

    Haven't shot anything with it but paper effigies of critters cans and clays with it but.

  15. #75
    Boolit Buddy Bulltipper's Avatar
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    Barrabruce, sounds like fun, wish I could join you for a couple beers and some gong shooting![IMG][/IMG]
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  16. #76
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
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    barrabruce, thanks for the info. I have always wondered if my 311291 would work in a 30/30 without the gas check at low plinking velocities. I'll give it a try.
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  17. #77
    Boolit Buddy Lead Freak's Avatar
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    9mm gas checks

    I've been buying Lee molds, however they don't offer a boolit mold with a gas check base. Is there a way to use checks on boolits that dont' have gas check bases cast in? I'm specifically looking for a way to gas check a 9mm boolit.

  18. #78
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    Welcome to the board.

    With it being your first post, I have to ask, Do you cast for anything other than 9mm?

    The 9mm is one of the most difficult handgun rounds to get to shoot well with cast because of the pressures involved. It can require tinkering with Alloy, size, hardness, lube, and powder charge to get a load that functions to the desired level.

    If you have a 45 ACP or a 38 Spec, I would work with those first and take what I learned as I moved on to the 9.

    The general wisdom is that a 9mm doesn't need a GC and Lee is not alone in only making plain base designs for the round. A quick check of RCBS, Saeco, NEI, and Lyman shows that none catalog a standard 9mm with a check.

    There have been some attempts at making checks for non-GC designed bullets with varying degrees of success. You can try one of the designs that makes checks from coke can material and then size the bullet/check combo back down.

    I would advise some tinkering with alloy and fit though.

    The BHP I used to own preferred the 358345 sized to 358 cast of linotype or heat treated WW alloy.
    Last edited by wiljen; 09-24-2011 at 08:05 AM.
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  19. #79
    Boolit Buddy Joe504's Avatar
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    Lead Freak, me, Wiljen, and probably everybody else, is assuming you are asking about 9mm Luger. I only say this because Im tinkering around with 9mm Largo right now. If you are casting something other than Luger, you might have better luck with casting success. I am certainly not an expert, but from everything I have read, and from advice from a commercial re-loader friend of mine, Luger is very difficult to cast for.

  20. #80
    Boolit Buddy windrider919's Avatar
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    + on all the comments on either the difficulty of cast with 9MM and with it not working well with a gas check.

    However, if you simply MUST try it, I have used this method to modify a mould.

    Mount the blocks in a mill... true and plumb... and cut the mould down between 0.090 and 0.100 so the bullet would be 'shorter'. Then make a pair of plates 0.100 thick ( most GC are 0.080 to 0.092 'high' so this leaves a slight gap between the top of the GC and the full dia bullet /shank which fills with grease like an intended groove, the first plates I made were too thin to work, warping and such) and just a little oversize to the mould block tops. Mount the set of blocks in the mill vise and establish edges and center over the bullet. Mount the plates with small pins and countersunk machine screws to the top of the mould blocks. Then, with the center of the quill shaft centered over the covered/hidden bullet cavity, drill a 0.340 hole...debur and try it. If you got everything centered you will have a shank for the gas check to mount on...the bullet weight will be lower.

    Remember to index and drill any holes for sprue plates and stops that were originally there in the mould so it all goes back together correctly.

    I have also done this with molds that were not cut down to get a heavier bullet, as long as you get it all centered so the new shank on the bullet is not lopsided/off center you can get as good of accuracy as from the unmodified mould.


    Getting REAL crazy, if your machining skills are up to it, I experimented by using the cheap Lee moulds and used a 45ACP round nose tumble lube mould and combined it with a 45ACP SWC tumble lube mould...joined to each other base to base [ignore the outside block dimensions, getting the cavity edges true to each other within 0.0005 was the hard part. I then cut down the SWC end block until the meplat point of the SWC became the pour hole for the cavity. Installed one of the old sprue plates on the new cut surface and I ended up with a 415 grain Round Nose Boat Tail .45 rifle bullet for paper patching. It actually shoots pretty good considering what a B-astard kludge it is, with average groups being 1" @ 100 yds out of a .458 Winchester Mag at 2100 FPS.

    Of course, using Pam for release spray and making glue gun sabots to protect the boat tail in firing that would still cleanly separate was a engineering TASK! It works but is just TOO MUCH trouble for the slight-ly better BC of the boat tail.
    Last edited by windrider919; 09-25-2011 at 12:55 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check