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Thread: Gas Check Boolits without Gas checks ???

  1. #41
    Boolit Master


    David2011's Avatar
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    Really interesting thread, guys! I just finished a rifle I built in gunsmithing school, chambered in 6.5x55 Swede. I have a large quantity of 120 gr soft point jacketed commercial bullets but still want to try some boolits in it. Now I'm confused. My standard handgun alloy for years has been 20 lb. wheelweight to 1/2 lb monotype. It works for anything from .38 wadcutters with 2.3 of Bullseye to .45ACP at all velocities to .40 S&W making IPSC major. I've hot tens of thousands of these boolits, no GC, since 1982.

    I have thought for years that straight lino with a gas check was the way to go with rifle boolits. This info makes me think that anything from straight mag wheelweight Pb to pure Monotype might be the right alloy. I assume I would need a GC at 6.5mm, thinking that around 1700-1800 fps would be a good target velocity. I have never cast or shot a cast rifle boolit. Actually, I haven't owned an appropriate rifle until I built the on in 6.5x55. Any suggestions?

    A friend gave me a long Mauser action already modified to large magnum, bolt face opened to H&H Mag size along with a .375 barrel, .375 H&H reamer and go gauge. I thougt it might be fun to shoot at around 1700 fps with cast boolits. Anyone have any experience there? With or without GC?

    David2011

  2. #42
    Boolit Bub
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    Sounds more like corrosive primer caused damage than gas cutting to me...

  3. #43
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    David, FWIW the Swede is a topic of much interest here - in the vein of it being a hard caliber to load cast for if heavy boolits are used due to the loooong boolits and fast twist. But read up on it, it is a fairly popular old military caliber and can be loaded, just you've gotta work at it. As for the .375 H&H, it may be an overlooked caliber on this board (here), but maybe THE BEST CAST CALIBER GOING! IMHO. An excellent compromise in boolit diameter and boolit weight for good velocity (due to large case), moderate recoil, and good killing power. I luv the .35 Whelen, but the edge is undisputably for the .375. Good wabbit medicine too! (unbelieveable - hits like a high velocity .22).
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  4. #44
    Boolit Master




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    I luv the .35 Whelen, but the edge is undisputably for the .375.

    leftiye,

    Please explain this statement. I love my 35 Whelen and my 358 Norma Mag. How is the 375 so much better?

    Edd
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  5. #45
    Boolit Master

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't using a g/ced mold without a g/c set us up by allowing a path for gas to work on the smaller dia base unlike a true p/b mold? Iv'e not tried this execpt with pistol boolits, but, with a rifle boolit at a higher vel, it seems that
    would happen.
    I haven't been doing this near as long as ya'll , but I think all have valid points. Is it a combination of factors that cause leading, or only one incorrect factor? Maybe someone one day will figure it out, until then we'll plug along trial & error. just my .02
    Gun control 1ST ROUND ON TARGET.

  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    Badger, Mainly bigger case capacity. Allows use of slower powders for lower pressure higher velocity cast loads without early high pressure spike (you hafta find the right powder still).

    Just as importantly larger bore. Larger bore equals better killing power, especially if you don't use expanding boolits. Heavier boolits in the 300 to 350 grain range also.
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  7. #47
    Boolit Master XWrench3's Avatar
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    i am certainly no expert, in fact, this post will certainly show how little i really understand about these. but i always thought that gas checks should be doubled up. like welded together, back to back. one side crimped on like they do, the other side facing backwards so they would act like a bevel base bullet. sealing all of the gas pressure behind the bullet. kind of like this.... ><bullet

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
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    HI,
    I would bet that the 375 could be loaded to 2,400-2,500 w/ cast w/ good acc.
    seems to me the bigger dia. slugs are also more forgiving of my mistakes.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
    a.squibload's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XWrench3 View Post
    i am certainly no expert, in fact, this post will certainly show how little i really understand about these. but i always thought that gas checks should be doubled up. like welded together, back to back. one side crimped on like they do, the other side facing backwards so they would act like a bevel base bullet. sealing all of the gas pressure behind the bullet. kind of like this.... ><bullet
    Dang, that sounds good. Like the leather gasket/skirt in the pump for a
    Coleman stove, only the other way around. I'm thinking short tube to align
    the checks as you spot-weld them together. Do a few then test in the sizer
    to see if it squishes the open GC. Loading into a case shouldn't hurt 'em.
    First check is the scraper, second is the seal. Would it work better? Who
    cares? We'll sell a million of 'em! Have your people call my people...

  10. #50
    Boolit Buddy Fire_stick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windrider919 View Post

    ...........

    Today I shoot Paper Patch because I will not pay the price for trick expanding J-bullets. I went to cast bullets but objected to the cost of GC too. Looking for a way around that and still desiring to shoot higher velocities than 1400 I found I can shoot up to 2200 with a PPed lead bullet. That also proved to me that no lead was vaporizing off the base of lead bullets because the paper exposed on the base does not burn. If the paper does not burn up than the lead d**** well is not either! But what about gas cutting you might ask in rebutal? The answer is that it is an apple and orange question. They are different because the gas cutting effect is not a function of heat, but a function of gas velocity.

    I have and do shoot regular grease grooved, gas check shanked bullets but withOUT GC that I PPed and shot at various velocities between 1600 to 2000 FPS. No leading and pretty fair accuracy too. My proof is in the pudding so to speak, I have proven to myself that high(er) velocity cast bullets do not have to have a GC to shoot well.
    windrider,

    I have tried paper patching regular gc 357 and 44 cal pb bullets with excellent results so far, up to 1950 fps.

    I did finally spend some money on gc's so I can run some comparison tests with proven pp loads I have developed for my guns.

    Thanks again to all for the good content in this thread.
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  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    So...what ever happened to progressive Rifleing?


    I heard the Colt Dragoons had it...various Rifles of course did back when.


    What about now?


    All these 'skidding' woes could become a thing of the ( recent) past!

  12. #52
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
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  13. #53
    Boolit Man
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    Bartlein barrels are making progressive twist. Not long ago Toby won a championship with one in 22 cal.. There is a fellow in Canada who has done a lot of work in this design. Do they work? Yes. Are they better than fixed twist? Yes No Sometimes!!!! But are they any good for cb's? If they gain even an inch over the length of the barrel, my gut says this can't be good. But! I would happily try out a couple if they are donated....Getting back - Veral says that if his lube is used ( and I shoot under 1050 ) there will be little to no leading and the next bullet will clean it out, and barrel will never need cleaned..... Going to give it a try....Would too hard be the reason the 80's marlin 444 will not shoot comercial bullets worth a darn?

  14. #54
    Boolit Buddy
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    Sorry, I didn't read all the posts here....

    I just loaded 150 rounds of Lee 180 grn GC ( without the GC) lubed with Tamarack 50/50, loaded with 12 grns of Red Dot and a little TP wad, cast of home made Lyman #2, sized .309"..
    So far I have only fired 50 rounds, all at the same sitting (slow fire) and I have NO LEADING at all.
    Using a O3-A3 Rem. with 2 groove barrel, issue sights.
    Accuracy was "Pie Plate" at a measured 100 yards, not really trying as I was fire Forming the brass ( I set the shoulders back when I sized em years ago )..... "Papa Jack"
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  15. #55
    Boolit Buddy BackWoods Billy's Avatar
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    1st off,let me say this is a great site.Came over here for a GB on a mold.Now it's hard to stay away. I'm pretty sure that this goes along with this thread.If some one could tell me what may cause this on this Barns .429 XPB 225gr. Looks to me as if it didn't grab the rifling right. This was put through a SBH 7.5" barrel with 21grs. H110.


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    Last edited by BackWoods Billy; 12-28-2010 at 01:00 PM.
    BackWoods Billy

  16. #56
    Boolit Mold
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    This was a excellent read. I've only been here a short time, but I'm sure impressed with the knowledge shared so freely. I'm on a lot of forms for different hobbies, but this one has taken up the last week. Great thread for sure.

    SwampYankee

  17. #57
    Boolit Man
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    Have a 357 Handi Rifle that does the same thing. Long throat and shallow rifeling. My SWAG is- the bullet does not always enter the bore straight. Most are heavier on one side. Have slugged the bore and they are shallow but straight. Almost as the slug enters at a few degrees of angle. Could the bore not be fully concentric with the chamber?

  18. #58
    Boolit Buddy windrider919's Avatar
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    Back when I trained as a gunsmith under Ron Freshour in the 80's we ran across multiple rifles including factory Rems, Wins, etc where the chamber was not concentric with the bore. This was especially disturbing when the rifle had come from some famous high priced gunsmith after re-barreling and would not shoot so was brought to us to check out. If the person running the chamber operation is not paying attention is is easy for the reamer to cut more on one side than the other. Once this starts the reamer will NOT re-center itself. The gun will shoot but it will never be as accurate as it could have been if the chamber was in line with the barrel bore. The only solution is to cut off the bad chamber and start again. We did try the bore out the chamber and press in an insert which was re-chambered on some valuable rifles for which no replacement barrel was wanted or available. It works with 'standard hunting accuracy' but will never give that 'tack driving

    Also, some reamers leave an oversize throat that let the bullet slightly cock as it moves forward into the rifling at firing. The bullet then is swedged lopsided which destroys its potential accuracy. Its Center of Gravity will not be the same as its Center of Rotation which causes larger groups or even a 'flyer'. One of the joys of Paper Patching is that you can have a bullet that is a few thousands under barrel size and use the PP to fill up the oversize throat and keep the bullet centered and aligned. When it fires, the paper is compressible and does not generate the extra dangerous high pressure a 'hard' bullet like an oversize jacketed or regular {similarly oversize} grease groove cast bullet would. Tailoring the bullet to fit the chamber can lead to some amazing accuracy from what were considered 'poor shooters'.

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  19. #59
    Boolit Bub
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    Excellent question:
    I've been dealing with this preparing first time load development for two new Ruger revolvers this winter.

    One being a 44spcl load from suggested starting loads to 7.5gr Unique under a 240gr cast boolit that is a gas check design not gas checking them (what a pain cleaning lube from gas check recess once sized and lubed prior to loading).

    The other a 44 mag loading Accurate#9
    from suggested starting load to under max using a 250gr non-gas checked boolit design both traveling under 2000fps.

    Plan is to paper punch until comfortable with both firearms, from there start into max loads gas checking.

    If wrong helpful suggestions welcomed.

    Thanks,
    Tom

  20. #60
    Boolit Buddy windrider919's Avatar
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    Scramjet, here is a suggestion for shooting cast bullets with gas check shank in revolvers.

    Get or fabricate a punch for .010 (ten thousands) more that the bore. Then go to the Dollar store and buy one of the cheap dough rolling sheets {for a buck!}. They are made of Polyethylene ( PE ) about .020 to .035 thick and are 24" X 24". You can make a few thousand wads from one. So when you have the powder in the case, use a dowel to push the wad into the case just below the mouth. then load the gas checkless bullets to dept and crimp if thats what it needs. The wad should be against the bullet base (may be slightly bowed away in the center due to oversize wad dia. I found in my Ruger Speed-Sixes I got better groups without gas checks but WITH the PE wads. The same in my Super Blackhawk.

    It's a cheap experiment to try and cheaper than copper gas checks to shoot!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check