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Thread: Adventures in top punch making (Long)

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy oldtoolsniper's Avatar
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    Adventures in top punch making (Long)

    Adventures in top punch making. Having two craftsman 109 metal lathes of which I have no idea how to use. I decided to make a top punch for a swc cast boolit. I am pretty good on a wood lathe and having turned a lot of pens and other wood objects I thought to myself, how hard can this be? With a wood lathe I grab a chunk of firewood, generally find close to center, chuck it up and turn to round. It’s simple to do. With this in mind, I dig through my metal lathe parts; I have a three jaw scroll chuck and three four jaw non-scroll chucks. I have some 5/8” bar stock so it should be a simple matter to chuck up a piece of bar stock in the three jaw scroll chuck and go to town. After twenty minutes of trying to get the bar stock centered I am beginning to realize why machinists’ get paid what they do. It seems as though a machinist must know how to use all of these tools, understand what tool cuts what way, know what speed to cut, what angle the tool must be in relation to the object being machined, understand all the gears and levers on the machine and keep all of this in perfect harmony to get that perfect fit. I suppose that knowing how to measure and read blueprints would come in handy as well. Four arms, six hands, and a brain that would put Einstein to shame would be helpful. This is just for a hobby lathe. I can’t imagine the requirements for a real lathe.

    The four jaw non scrolling chucks must be the answer, after all I do have three and there must be a reason why the previous owner had three. If I have three of anything it’s because it really works, two are broken and the third is getting ready to, or I got them at auction for a really good price. After trying to put my bar stock in one of these I am convinced the previous owner got them at a really good price. I think they were made to convince people like me who want to try and make their own parts, not to ever try. Four independent jaws adjusted by an allen wrench individually to center around piece of bar stock can’t be that hard, can it? I know why machinists’ organize and color code everything they own. I understand why the groceries are stacked in alphabetical order by the size of the can in the cupboards. I get why they look and dress like Einstein, it’s the world they live in. By the time I got that thing down to an 1/8” out of true I was proud. I have heard stories about machinists’ being able to chuck up a round piece to within a thousandth of an inch of run out with one of those wretched tools. I believe they reside with Unicorns, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster. I went upstairs to bed hoping the lathe fairy would come and properly chuck my bar stock while I slept.

    I spent the night under my magic blanket protected from the monsters that live under my bed. I awoke happy to see I had survived with my arms and legs still attached. The monsters under my bed went hungry again, thanks to the powers of my magic blanket. The blankets are sold next to the Shamwows in Wal-Mart.

    After some coffee I snuck up on the lathe to see, Dang it! The lathe fairy did not come and I was on my own. I am not one to give up so easily, so I put the tailstock in position, picked out a pointy looking cutter thing, placed it the tool holder, moved it into position and flipped the switch. This whole contraption is bolted to a rather large solid steel welding table I built, it’s heavy. I stared in amazement as the table began bouncing flinging tools, oilcans and everything else onto the floor in a matter of seconds. I shut her down. Mental note to self; big pulley on motor to little pulley on lathe equals really fast, combine this with poor stock centering and you have a large, violently, vibrating shell cleaner on your hands. Those top punches are looking mighty cheap at this point.

    I switch the pulley; it’s now small to large and attempt more allen wrench adjustments. I am ready to flip the switch again. Should I get one of those catchers’ chest plates and a riot helmet with shield or just rely on my cat like reflexes to protect me? Here kitty, kitty. I flip the switch and things are much better, I am down to a gentle shaking and since my hands are shaking the exact opposite, we cancel each other out. Now I only need to control the forward, reverse, left to right, right to left, screw feed, and two depth of cut dials and I will have it. Do I need to oil like when I drill iron or steel? I will hold the oil can in my teeth. It’s a good thing my head is shaved for my hair will not be ripped from my head; nose hair and ear hair are properly pinned back after all I am over 40 and they both grow about a foot each night.

    I flip down the screw drive lever and the tool holder begins to move in the opposite direction of the headstock. I now know what is reverse and what is forward, back in the forties they were not required to divulge such secrets, even the belts were left exposed because real mean don’t need no safeties. I am now going in the right direction. Exposed belt spinning, gears whirring, the table and I shaking as one, I am now on my way to saving $8.69.

    Having the stock not on center causes cutting only on the closest edge, you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. The question is, will it be big enough in diameter to make a punch by the time it is turned down to round. Algebra was simple to me X= 24 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz, it’s the 24th letter in the alphabet, I keep using that formula and for some reason it keeps failing me. I am persistent and perhaps the algebra fairy will someday come, in the meantime I will continue with scientific wild ass guesses. (SWAG’s) I did good, it will be big enough.

    Now what are all of these cutters ground to different profiles for? Some of them cut, some of them smoke, and some of the just cause the belt to slip. You should note two things here. Number one machinists know these things and that knowledge is what you are really paying for. Number two, used lathes are like rental cars, you never know what the moron driving it before you did to it, so pay accordingly.

    Eight hours and lots of smoke later I have a punch. I charge $30.00 an hour for animal damage control work so using math for Marines that $8.69 punch is worth $240.00. I did save $8.69 so if I sell them at $300.00 each I could make a profit.

    What did I learn?

    I am not going into the top punch making business anytime soon.
    I will no longer cringe at the thought of paying $18.99 for a lube sizer die. Do you know how much knowledge it requires to make them? I do, and hopefully after reading this you do to.

    I will support fully those folks on this forum who make dies and such for those of us who need them. They are doing us a huge favor. I thank each and every one of you.
    “Work hard! Millions on welfare depend on it!”

  2. #2
    In Remembrance
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    I am not going into the top punch making business anytime soon.
    I will no longer cringe at the thought of paying $18.99 for a lube sizer die. Do you know how much knowledge it requires to make them? I do, and hopefully after reading this you do to.
    Marines have always been gluttons for punishment.

    I hear ya. I've tried making/fabricating a few of my own pieces and tools. After a day or two or sweating, swearing, grunting and groaning, having the telphone in one hand and credit card in the other wasn't nearly so painful.

    (Looks like it turned out okay--I just don't see any indentation for the nose. . . You WERE going to do a little beveling inside and have an inverse conical shape for .45 acp round nose boolits--one that was going to match up perfectly with the ogive, right? You're just taking a little break at the moment before you go back, right?)


  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master
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    If you know a machinist, or even a hobbyist that has used a lathe, buy some beer and invite him over. It's amazing what an hour or two can answer. And....invest in a magnetic base dial indicator.
    You cannot discover new oceans unless you have the courage to lose sight of the shore

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy oldtoolsniper's Avatar
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    That was for a wad cutter. I don't even want to consider some kind of profile.

    I am now attempting a homemade lube heater.

    The brass tumbler out of a bread machine hasn't work so well yet either! I wonder if the heat element will make a lead smelter.
    “Work hard! Millions on welfare depend on it!”

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    It is almost always hilarious to watch a person the first time they try to indicate a part in true in a 4 jaw or the first time they try to level a machine .

    Some folks never seem to master the process, and a few do not grasp that you must LOOSEN one jaw and tighten the other jaw, so they cruch anything that is not solid.

    The neophyte machine levelers almost always end up with the machine as high in the air as the jack screws will allow(and no more level than when they started), again a failure to ever see taking away as a solution rather than adding .

    Many parts of things that go on every day we never pay any attention to. For example most carpenters know a wall needs to be a certain height so the siding will fit, and the windows need to be a certain distance up from the bottom, again so the siding will fit . But when a machinist reads that in a book he goes "hey that's COOL" hehe.

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    Lossa machinists here, we all would probly be glad to answer your questions. Ya got any dial gauges on magnetic stands?
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy oldtoolsniper's Avatar
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    indicating true? leveling the machine? I missed that in my two page 109 lathe instructions. man, now I have to go to the free book place and read.
    “Work hard! Millions on welfare depend on it!”

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Sprue's Avatar
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    Harbor Freight is your friend -sometimes.

    http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...5645&Submit=Go

    Also look at the top right hand corner, of the same page.
    Last edited by Sprue; 03-11-2009 at 04:20 PM.
    Sprue ™

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    I was thinking of buying a lathe or mill combination, but I haven't done machine work since high school. Thanks for getting that idea out of my head. Your adventure was sobering, yet hilarious! Think I'll just go to the home brew store and start that as a hobby. At least I'll have a fall back plan after a bad day at the range.

    Regards,
    Bill
    America is like a healthy body, and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within. Joseph Stalin


    "Hope" is not a strategy.

    Life member NRA
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    A 3 jaw scroll chuck shouldn't be that far out unless the jaws are not in the right order or it has been crashed once too many times .

    Check to make sure that the jaws are in the right slots , each jaw and slot should have some kind of matching system on them (numbers 1 2 3 , 1 dot 2 dots 3 dots) or something of that nature .

    Otherwise the chuck jaws needs to be reground to get it centered and that usually means having a tool post grinder .

    When you start a project that you are going to use the live center on first chuck the stock close to the chuck and face it off , then use a center drill to drill the relief hole and a small chamfer for the centers angled surfaces to mate too .
    Helps keep the part a little straighter .

    Go to your locale library and see if they have a basic lathe operating book and read it . Even a good lathe operator had to learn what he's doing .

    Hang in there and you will get it , any time you are turning that lathe on you are going to be in learn mode for awhile and it does get easier as it goes .

    Keith
    Only dumb question is the one not asked

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  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy oldtoolsniper's Avatar
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    sprue... that's the price of two top punches.. I need more tools to save money.

    Bill... I am a slow learner after all I was a Marine for 23 years

    Icer... found an old book and I am discovering what and why those tools are made the way they are. I never noticed those numbers on that chuck. That is broke down to “Potato Head “ just like I like it!
    Thanks you guys!
    Last edited by oldtoolsniper; 03-11-2009 at 06:05 PM. Reason: spell check
    “Work hard! Millions on welfare depend on it!”

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    I'll have you know, you made me laugh for the first time today.

    While I have never run a lathe or mill, I have thought about buying one from time to time. Luckily I am fortunate to have several friends that know how to use them.

    One time I had taken my Ruger SP-101 completely apart to give in an inside to outside cleaning, and to re-lube the friction surfaces inside the wheely. Well when I decided to put it back together I tried "forcing" the trigger guard assemply back into the frame. I heard a "pop" and a little pin-head of metal fell out. I looked for 15 minutes before I finally found out where it came from. It was the little guide pin that sits on top of the spring for the pawl with rides in a little hole in the trigger. "Crap!" Cause I just knew Ruger was going to charge $40-50 for this little dinky thing. What did I do? I grabbed my dremel (I was at my apartment in the city away from my shop), a worn out drill bit, and a file. 30 minutes later, and a little bit of polishing with sandpaper and I had a part that look 95% perfect. Never had a issue with it working.

    Lesson? Sometimes simpler is better. Should have used a electric drill and a file

    EDIT: Btw, top punch looks great. Hope it works good too.
    JDGabbard's Feedback Thread

    "A hand on a gun is better than a cop on the phone," Jerry Ellis, Oklahoma State House of Representatives.

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    Jdgabbard's very own boolit boxes pattern!

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    One of many rules to live by.

    "Everything is easy, when you know how!"

    I've met enough guys that were too dumb to be Marines ( ) that were able to learn how to run a machine tool or two, to think that a guy with a little interest can't work through most of the hurdles.

    Dig around online, and see if you can come up with a download of the South Bend Lathe Co. book, called "How to Run a Lathe". Great book, covers a lot of basic info. Sometimes abbreviated as "HTRAL". New reprints of older versions of this book are available for less than $10, and truly represent a bargain!

    I second the notion that you hook up with someone that can show you a few things. Stuff that could take hours to explain, can be made clear in a two minute demo. Like centering stuff in a four-jaw! Really easy. When you know!

    See what the public library has to offer. Ask around if you know any school teachers, see if you can borrow a shop text. The one I recommend most is called Technology of Machine Tools, by Krar. New, it runs about $75 or so. Buy used! Lots of great info therein.

    With the correct tool holder and rest, you can turn metal almost the same way wood is turned, just slower. Watchmakers and Jewellers have been doing it for a long time! Works best with brass, but steel is quite possible this way too.

    Cheers
    Trev

  14. #14
    Boolit Master



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    "Pointy cutter thing" - I love it!

    We had a little shop in the garage when I was a kid. Logan 9" quick-change, drill press, and grinder. Made some stuff, including a mouthpiece for my trombone and a plastic gear-shift knob. Would kinda be nice to have that rig here, now.
    Echo
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    One of the most endearing sights in the world is the vision of a naked good-looking woman leaving the bedroom to make breakfast. Bolivar Shagnasty (I believe that Lazarus Long also said it, but I can't find any record of it.)

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    That's the best story that I've read in a long time.
    Maybe you should write short stories and buy loading gear with the proceeds.

    "Endevor to persevere."

    It's no more complicated than casting boolits.
    (Sorry, I was trying to encourage you. )

    BTW, the guy that I was working with today centered a half ton part in a 48" 4-jaw chuck within 0.0005" in about ten minutes. He could have done it faster without my help.

    Jack

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


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    oldtoolsniper,

    That was funny, thank you.

    What part of Iowa do y'all live in? Are you near me in south east South Dakota?


    Cat
    Cogito, ergo armatum sum.

    (I think, therefore I'm armed.)

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldtoolsniper View Post
    sprue... that's the price of two top punches.. I need more tools to save money.

    Bill... I am a slow learner after all I was a Marine for 23 years

    Icer... found an old book and I am discovering what and why those tools are made the way they are. I never noticed those numbers on that chuck. That is broke down to “Potato Head “ just like I like it!
    Thanks you guys!

    Well it is more that the jaws go into the chuck in order, than the fact that they are in the slot marked the same as the jaw. I have used a few chucks that the numbers had been surface ground off after many years of truing them up.

    You line your jaws up 1, 2, 3...then you run the scroll around so it's start is at slot number 1, myself I take it past...push the jaw against it, then back the scroll up until it the jaw "clicks" down....then advance the scroll to slot #2 and put jaw #2 in, and finally jaw #3 (on up to #6 of you have a 6 jaw)

    It can be a laugh watching a guy who THINKS he knows how it works and keeps trying and trying.....I was that kid and my dad was the one laughing many years ago.

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    When I retired from my career as an anesthesiologist and finally got down to some serious shooting and casting of boolits, I decided that I'd like to know how to use some of those neat machines that are found in machine shops. So I took a year and a half of machine shop practice at our local community college, a course that was taught by a gentleman who was also a well respected gunsmith. Since that time I've picked up an old (early 1970s) Sears Craftsman 10" lathe and a well used but nice mill/drill comb and since then I've been able to fabricate many of the items that I would have normally have had to purchase. But after doing all of this, I have to suggest to you that if you want to avoid ulcers, don't spend too much time figuring out how much some small item that you've just made actually would have cost if billed at your normal per hour rate. You'll probably never be able to justify your machine tool purchases so just enjoy the fact that you are able to produce workable items and have a good time doing so!

    If I can suggest a good book, try "Machine Tool Practices" by Kibbe, Neely, Meyer and White and published by Prentice Hall. Cost me $75 new for my classes but I'm sure you can get it used for a LOT less.

    Keep 'turning and burning' but just don't forget that you NEVER EVER leave the chuck lock wrench in the chuck!! There were two holes in the ceiling of the Community College machine shop where chuck wrenches had made their forceful exit after having been left in chucks when the machine was started. Could just as easily have been the operator's chest or someone else's back so be really careful, almost to the point of being paranoid, about the chuck wrench.

  19. #19
    Boolit Bub
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    Making nose punches is very easy. Put a piece in a three jaw, turn the outside (easy) to fit the press. Drill and or bore a recess in the nose oversize for the projectile in question. Put the punch in the press, put release agent on the bullet, mix up some epoxy of whatever you might have and apply. Drop the punch on the nose and when cured take it apart and clean up the mess. Perfect nose punch every time! You can even do it will a drill instead of a lathe if you are careful.

  20. #20
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    A 4 jaw chuck is relatively easy to center with a dial indicator. If the distance between the high spot and the low spot, as it rotates, is .300. You losen the jaw on the low end and tighten the jaw on the high end. You only tighten the high end 1/4 turn at a time and rotate the chuck. Watch the dial indicator as the chuck turns and repeat the process until the work is centered. The cutters are for right hand cuts, left hand cuts, parting cuts, etc. I wish I had two of those lathes. I've been kicking the idea of getting one around for quite sometime.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check