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Thread: crush thread hybrid barrel on late model S&W?

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    crush thread hybrid barrel on late model S&W?

    Does anybody here know about crush fit thread hybrid barrels on late model S&W revolvers? I have a 4” K-frame with an oversized groove diameter & I want to put a better barrel on it. S&W says that they will change the barrel for me (for a pretty penny) but they will not guarantee the groove diameter that I will get. That is just completely unacceptable & since I don’t know any pistolsmiths within driving distance of here that I trust, I think that I am on my own with this one. I’ve been through the Jerry K book & he gives a pretty reasonable description of what to do with a pinned barrel, but the crush fit hybrid that I have just isn’t covered there. Has anybody here been through a barrel change on one of these? If so, can you give me a preview of what to expect?

    Thanks,
    Jim

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Jim, I am not certain what you are referring to as a hybrid. Is this just a nonpinned barrel, or is it one of those that has a shroud and barrel that requires a special wrench for the rifling to remove it?
    I have not worked with the shroud-type barrel. IIRCC Jerry's book doesn't diferentiate between a pinned or non-pinned barrel, as far as having different fitting procedures. You might take a look at the following link, I found it very helpful and actually used it as a sort of "guide" when I fitted a new barrel to my "N" frame:

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/yvwqh8

    Pretty entertaining reading, even if it don't apply to your "hybrid".

    lathesmith

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    Hi Lathesmith & thank you for that link. That was a good read.

    Yes, this "hybrid" is the barrel with the shroud. I have not been able to find anyplace to buy the special bore wrench for grabbing the inside of the barrel, but I think that I have a pretty good game plan for getting around that one. I was planning on dropping a 1/4 long-arm Allen wrench down inside the barrel, then filling it with potting compound, like cerosafe or something. That should give me a good solid, well-distributed grip that is removable below 200 degrees F, so tempering should not be affected. Beyond that I was wondering what to expect.

    Does that shroud just spin freely once the barrel is loose? Are there only the two parts? Or are there more? Is there someplace that I can get a diagram of the new style barrel? What kind of risk am I running by removing the original crush fit barrel? Will there be damage to the frame threads? Will I need to retap? Will I need to sleeve? Can I install a pinned barrel? Will the frame threads be too loose from already having a crush fit barrel installed & therefore make a pinned barrel difficult to attach rigidly?

    I'm not trying to saddle you with all these questions Lathesmith. I'm just putting them out there for everyone to take a look at.

    Thanks again for the reply.

    Jim
    Last edited by JIMinPHX; 01-30-2008 at 07:28 PM.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Jim, check the S&W forums, it seems like I have seen some of these questions there. IIRC, you are on the right track with using cerrosafe to make a barrel wrench. For the other stuff...I saw where one poster said an older barrel could be fitted to a new (shroud) frame, but not the other way around. Beyond this,I don't know. Check it out, join if you need to, and ask a few questions there. There are some nice guys on this forum that seem to know S&W's really well.

    http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/for...rm/f/580103904

    lathesmith

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    Thanks Lathesmith, I'll give them a try.

  6. #6
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    hand loader did an article on this iirc
    s&w wont even sell this wrench to gunsmiths.
    so the cerrosafe deal is the only way to go.
    i believe what i read is exactly what is going on here
    so much for customer service anymore.
    seems like a lot of gun companies have the take it as is or too bad you already bought it
    and thats what you got. attitude

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    Don't shout at me for this ...ok ?
    I once fitted a 24tip bbl to a 20 tpi frame in a Colt single action.

    I did not want to damage the frame, so I simply overthreaded the 24 tpi bbl to 20 tpi.
    It was butt ugly, but it worked.

    x

    One time I had a model 95 or 96 ( I get confused ) bbl in 7mm that I wanted to fit to a mauser 98 action.
    I turned most of the threads off down to the shank, then I fine threaded it....20 tpi or so.

    Next, I took a hunk of steel boiler pipe I think, and lathe bored the inside , then inside threaded it to match. I screwed the hunk of steel on to the barrel shank, turned the mess down to mauser 98 diameter, then threaded it to mauser tpi 12 tpi I think.

    I screwed the thing together, headspaced it, and it worked fine.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    I’m not going to shout at you for saying that, but I’ll let you know that I’m looking to do a little more of a first class job than that. I want to keep everything at or above factory quality.

    I’m having a tough time finding good info on this. I’ve scoured the S&W site. There is only scant info there. I get the impression that not too many people have messed with these things yet. I also get the impression that the crush fit is a bad idea from the word go. Apparently, it has a tendency to cause a constriction in the barrel diameter under the threads when the whole mess is assembled.

    I’m going to keep digging for more info before I dive into this project any deeper. If anyone has any other ideas where I should be looking, I’m all ears.

    Thanks,
    Jim

  9. #9
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    The experience you are having is the reason I refuse to buy another Smith & Wesson Product! If I had known that T/C had been bought by them I would have given it another bit of thought before I bought my used Contender!

    The honest truth is: as long as we give(any gun company) them money they will have no need to listen to us when we demand a repair or replacement part!

    My understanding is you plan to change this barrel yourself in an attempt to improve the pistols accruarcy?

    I've changed a barrel or two in my day so I will go out on a limb here and make a few suggestions.
    Bite the bullet and sell the gun and get out now! This isn't what you want to hear I'm sure but it's going to be the least painful less expensive way to go!
    The reason I'm saying this is you will never get your money back if you ever decide to sell the gun and( this is more likely) you'll actually depreciate it because no one knows who you are or the quality of your work!

    The second suggestion is: send the gun to one of the big boys! like cylinder and slide or Bowen custom, or Gary Reeder.

    Yes this will cost you some cash! However if and when you decide to sell you have now got documented proof that the factory issue was repaired by a known name in the industry! With that information you might be able to recover at least the sale price of the gun.

    I'm not trying to stop you from learning something! I'm simply saying what is it you going to learn, and do you really want to?

  10. #10
    Boolit Man
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    Jim - Unfortunately, I must agree with heavymetal. My personal feeling is that the "crush fit/shrouded barrel" is a bad idea based on fast/cheap assembly. It was originally touted as having better accuracy, ala the old Dan Wesson, with the barrel being held under tension. Unfortunately I do not think a crush fit is such a good idea for accuracy (IMO) - after all look at some of the best shooting custom target rifles - the custom smiths turn the barrels on with as little as 30-40 ft-pounds. One fellow even spins them on "hand tight" - he claims they never shoot loose and has better than MOA accuracy. Perhaps he has much stronger hands than me.

    The barrel constriction at the frame can be determined by pushing a tight oiled patch or pure lead round ball from the muzzle and "feel" for it. One fellow I know had such a tight bore at the frame, and found it was crap in the threads. after disassembly and wire brushing both the frame threads and barrel threads, the constriction was gone. This was on the old "pinned" S&W.
    You might be better off trading it for a used pinned barrel N-frame... (my personal preference)
    Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
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    They will never shoot loose when the barrel is turned into the frame the opposite way of the twist. The barrel must be just tight enough to maintain the same vibration frequency per shot. ... felix
    felix

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    Well, I’m not going to try to sell off a gun that I know has a problem, & I don’t have any pistolsmiths within driving distance that I trust to do a first class job, so those two options are out for me. My primary option of sending it back to Smith didn’t work out too well, so that leaves me with a project on my bench. I’m not worried about getting my time & money back that I put into this thing, because I don’t ever plan to sell it. Smith doesn’t make K-frames anymore so I don’t want to let this one go. I just want to get a better quality barrel onto it. I’m a qualified machinist, so the work itself doesn’t scare me. I just need to gather all the necessary information & find a good barrel before I dig into it. The over-diameter barrel that it came with from the factory is simply not acceptable to me. I want this thing to be right & I’m willing to do what it takes to make it that way. I do thank everyone for the well-intentioned advice though, even if I’m choosing not to take you up on your suggestions.

    Regards,
    Jim

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master

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    "Smith doesn't make K-frames any more" ---

    A quick look at their web site shows the Model 10, 64, 67, 617 which
    are K-frames.

    Wonder how this rumor got started?

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master S.R.Custom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMinPHX View Post
    Well, I’m not going to try to sell off a gun that I know has a problem...
    Why not? S&W doesn't seem to have had a problem selling it to you...
    “If your only tool is a hammer, then all your problems start to look like people who need to be beaten with a hammer.”

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    Jim,
    Out of curiosity, what is the actual groove diameter of your S&W? I'm assuming it's a .38 or .357 caliber. What kind of groups have you been getting?
    Jason

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtGun44 View Post
    "Smith doesn't make K-frames any more" ---

    A quick look at their web site shows the Model 10, 64, 67, 617 which
    are K-frames.

    Wonder how this rumor got started?

    Bill
    The 65's & 66's are finished. I think that the K-frames they have left are just what is still in the warehouse. I believe that they stopped production about 2 years ago.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRD View Post
    Jim,
    Out of curiosity, what is the actual groove diameter of your S&W? I'm assuming it's a .38 or .357 caliber. What kind of groups have you been getting?
    Jason
    Off the top of my head, I think it was like .362 or something like that. I got horrible leading in the first inch & a half of the barrel after only a few shots. The throats were all just about right on the money at like .3569-.3572 or something like that. I'd have to go dig up the letter that I sent to S&W with the gun to give you the actual real numbers, but these are probably pretty close.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMag View Post
    Why not? S&W doesn't seem to have had a problem selling it to you...
    Because I'm not like S&W...in more ways than one.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master S.R.Custom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMinPHX View Post
    Because I'm not like S&W...in more ways than one.
    I understand the sentiment, but I don't think it applies, and here's why: You are not responsible for what S&W turns out. It's not your name on the side plate. Keep in mind, too, that the things that bother you about the gun may be totally inconsequential to the next guy. Let him decide what is and what is not suitable for his purpose.

    That said, I recently sold a S&W that I didn't like, and I had pretty good reason not to like it. But rather than assume responsibility for others' work, I got rid of it. I looked at it as an opportunity to spread the word about S&W's dedication to quality.
    “If your only tool is a hammer, then all your problems start to look like people who need to be beaten with a hammer.”

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    I hear where you're coming from SuperMag. If I sold the gun to a guy that only shot normal store-bought J-ammo, he would probably never have an issue with it. To him there would be nothing wrong with it & that would be a fair & honorable sale. Unfortunately, to my own detriment sometimes, I have a problem with letting something like that slide. It's also a craftsmanship thing with me. I'm the same way with motorcycles. I never buy a new one. I usually get an old shovelhead or something & fix it up as I ride it. After I've owned it for a few years, it gets to be pretty spiffy. That’s usually when I see the next junker sitting on the side of the road somewhere with a for sale sign on it & the whole cycle starts again. It’s like I need to have stuff that needs me, or something crazy like that. In this case it’s more complicated. I can't just go out & buy a new 4" model 66 that is good to go right off the shelf because they don't make them any more. If I want a nice one, which I do, then I either need to get real lucky & stumble upon somebody that is selling a cherry old one or I need to do something with the one that I have. I'm not feeling real confident about my chances of finding a nice one popping up right in front of me for sale any time soon, so I'm thinking that I'm going to be playing games with this one for a while instead, whether I like it or not.

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