Gates Extreme Meplat Bullets

[44man]

.44 -- the first one is a 41/44---- ballistics 250 cast performance 1500+ these bullits have a lot of bearing area so not so fast-- about 1400 -1410 --I think lots of folks are interested in cast on game but certainly other things too--I thought i remember 'd you from Beartooth - I have read much of your thoughts at times--I try to listen some one who has more inexperience than I weather it is casting or hunting -- I made the bullet up at Dan's and so far have not really wanted another one- happy with this one--next I want to hunt a boar with them--may be soon

OK, that makes sense now. I bet it is fun to shoot. I like that boolit.

[Crass Whackwords]

Crass, Would you please tell us what weight/ powder charge you used and show us a picture of the boolit. You ask us to guess and then you dribble out the info a little at a time. Come clean and give us the details.

Isn't that part of the fun ? It seems to be a characteristic of members whose name rhymes with mine.

It was a 190 grain bullet. Let's see if I can find a picture. Well, here's a picture of the bullet recovered from a moose. Note the nose "rivits", but HTWW will not form a big mushroom like a ductile alloy. If HTWW rivits too much, pieces will break off and it will shed weight, but at worst you end up with a full wadcutter, which is fine and dandy.


Well, I can't find a picture of an unfired bullet, so let me see if I can go find a bullet and post back later.

[Crass Whackwords]

[Crass Whackwords]

Velocity 1700 - 1725 fps, which can be obtained with either Lil Gun or WW296. Loat data cannot be used for any other 190 grain bullet (true of ANY 357 load data).

According to my notes, the best 5-shot average (not best group, best AVERAGE based on 3 or more groups) was 3.27" at 100 yards, with a ghost ring sight. Certainly not a tackdriver, but fine woods gun accuracy, especially considering the crappy SAAMI "throat."

A smaller meplat would probably shoot more accurately, but the 1894 is a hunting rifle, not a target rifle.

A hollow point might perk things up, too, but "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Someone mentioned bullets breaking up. I've never had a HTWW bullet break up in game. I've never had one break up in the dirt berm at the range, either, and dirt is tougher than game. Sure, if you hit a steel plate or a boulder, the bullet may disentigrate, but it doesn't seem to happen on game. Sometimes the nose sheds weight as it "rivits," but nothing to be concerned about.

I have seen other folks' bullets break in two. I seem to remember that happening to BAbore with a store bought 480 bullet on a bison (he's been casting his own ever since ). Since it doesn't happen to my bullets, either I've been lucky, or else I'm doing something right, like modest casting temperatures and oven treating instead of water dropping.

[Crass Whackwords]

I should add that some tuning is required to feed this bullet.

My Marlin, as it came from the factory, wouldn't even feed FMJ's.

I slicked up the action, oh-so-lightly chamfered the entrance to the chamber, and modded the carrier to COL's 1.600" or maybe a few thou more, vs. 1.59" out of the box. Doesn't sound like much but the 190 crowds the powder space.

[HiVelocity]

Folks, I've known James Gates and his products well. Be sure and check out his 12ga "Tri-Ball".

J.Kirk in SC
HiVelocity

PS- I've used his .35 caliber cast bullet and have 50 left loaded for my L frame Smith. Outstanding!

[Daves1]

Crass, whats your recipe for heat treating?

[Dixie Slugs]

Crass...It's nothing exotic indeed! For the .625" and .730", including the .500 Tornado. Our people cook them for one hour at 425 degress and water quench in water that is 72 degress...then Alox 350 wash. This cooking time gives an ever heat throughtout the bullet.
There are write-ups on Dixie Slugs as to how they stood up to the Bone Box at the Linebaugh Seminar.
We use the same setup for handgun bullets (for our use), except we size/gas check first, heat treat, and then lube in the Star.
We have on occasion, heat treated the high antimony buckshot from BPI.
Really rather simple......James

[Dixie Slugs]

I am sorry, I thought he was talking to me....James

[Daves1]

I got just what I was looking for, Thanks James

[Crass Whackwords]

cook them for one hour at 425 degress and water quench.........
We use the same setup for handgun bullets (for our use), except we size/gas check first, heat treat, and then lube

Same here, maybe 430 degrees, but that's splitting hairs, since kitchen ovens are not calibrated precisely.

I've never gotten excited about bucket dropping, even though it seems to work satisfactorily for most people. Too many downsides, and no upside from my point of view.

The only downside to oven treating is that the bullets usually have trace amounts of lube when they are placed in the oven (because I size before treating, and use a tiny bit of lube for sizing purposes, plus there is residual lube in the die, anyhow) so there may be some odor. Perhaps your significant other is the type who does not care for the pleasant aroma of scorched bullet lube ? I suspect that is why most people prefer to bucket drop.

[GLynn41]

personally --I prefer to not cook lead and food in the same place -just me--which is why i wdww if I do anything --have found it is not needed for deer

[Dixie Slugs]

We have an older gas stove in the shop that we put a temp gauge through the door. As I mentioned, we seldom use it for our bullets for handguns and Marlin 1894's....most of the time it's used for the ammo Dixie sells which is not sized and the Alox 350 wash is done later. We also have a few of the table top electric ovens that are used for small quantities of special orders.
I agree that one really does not need heat treated bullets for thin skin game....but most of our Dixie ammo is ordered for large and/or dangerous game and has proven best when heat treated.
I fully realize that our ammo is 100% game loads and designed for a specific hunting situation. I do not profess to know much about long range cast bullets designs...or need to.
On the other hand, we have done quite a bit of testing on nose shapes hit with a high pressure water stream. The angle of the spray tells alot about what happens to the water in tissue......but that's another story and I doubt it would be of interest here on this forum.
Regards, James

[44man]

We have an older gas stove in the shop that we put a temp gauge through the door. As I mentioned, we seldom use it for our bullets for handguns and Marlin 1894's....most of the time it's used for the ammo Dixie sells which is not sized and the Alox 350 wash is done later. We also have a few of the table top electric ovens that are used for small quantities of special orders.
I agree that one really does not need heat treated bullets for thin skin game....but most of our Dixie ammo is ordered for large and/or dangerous game and has proven best when heat treated.
I fully realize that our ammo is 100% game loads and designed for a specific hunting situation. I do not profess to know much about long range cast bullets designs...or need to.
On the other hand, we have done quite a bit of testing on nose shapes hit with a high pressure water stream. The angle of the spray tells alot about what happens to the water in tissue......but that's another story and I doubt it would be of interest here on this forum.
Regards, James

It would indeed James. Or in a new post because it fits in nicely with what I see in deer.
I remember about my thinking long ago with soft jacketed hollow points that expanded like crazy in water, etc and thought how they would knock down deer and explode the internals. I never hunted them back then and did not think about needed penetration, blood trails and meat damage.
Then when I started using FN boolits on them at the proper velocities, success was so good I thought they would work at any speed, how mistaken I was! I have learned a lot by doing a necropsy on each and observing what each boolit does.
This is a continual learning process and I never base results on one animal that happens to die fast because a false sense of effectiveness blurs further testing. Faith in the wrong boolit for the velocity can cause failure in the field and depends on the size of the animal being hunted too.
I read it all the time how good a boolit worked for someone at 1800 fps but in reality it can be the wrong assumption. I have been guilty of that also.
I consider what a boolit does in the animal the highest priority and though I admit, shooting into all kinds of media is never the same as flesh and blood, your testing is of great interest.

[Dixie Slugs]

It is a simple fact that killing one or two animals will not give the absolute lethal potential of some bullet design. There are just to many variables. We can establish certain designs for certain hunting situations.
But....we have to set the requirements based on the game and distance. After years on tests on game, we see the starting points of a game bullet design. We can agrue about the % of meplat to the diameter of the bullet forever...but it better have a lot of meplat area.
I do feel that cast bulllet shooters, within brush gun ranges, have leaned too far on weight. They need to forget weight and study Sectional Density...since it is Velocity & Sectioal Density that gives penetration.
It is a fact that many existing game bullets designs have been refined....and those refinements are based on observed results....not slide rule speculations.
Now....understand I deal with game bullets only! The designs I have posted are based on a velocity of 1100'/" to 1800'/"...The 1800'/" from short barrrel brush guns. ....and for the most part within 100 yards. Beyond that, the design must be changed on out to 175 yards or so. .....still based on brush guns.
Qiute frankly, I do not consider bullets that are not at least .357" and up to be good cast game bullet designs. I am quite sure there will be disagreements on that statement. Under .357", I leaned toward today's excellent jacketed ullet designs. So...I can speak only about game bullets within the above distance.
Regards, James

[44man]

Again, you are 100% correct! This is no easy task. Distance changes everything and if I shot my 45-70 WFN boolits into deer at 200 yd's I am sure they would be perfect but I need to tailor my boolits from 20 to 100 yd's only---a whole new set of variables.
Velocity is my enemy, If I shot the same boolit from my .45 it would kill from zero to as far as an animal could be hit with it but from the 45-70, closer range kills are iffy. I could slow it down but would lose accuracy BIG time.
I understand your problems trying to satisfy all kinds of variables to cover all distances, alloys, meplats, etc. You have no idea what a hunter will shoot at or how far. Whether he needs an expanding boolit or just a big meplat.

[Dixie Slugs]

That's the exact reason I do not plan to get into the general selling of component bullet business. But, it goes beyond that. I have a good friend in the component bullets business. He starrted out with a well designed line of game bullets, but his customers always wanted something different. Now, he has so many in line that he can't plan ahead for inventory. They buy one and then another...always changing!
Most now are not cast bullet hunters (who tend to stay with one design they have found that works) and are still wanting him to have a mold cut for some exotic new re-design. He told me that he has molds that were cut and only a few hundred bullets were ordered from.
I have in house now all the equipment that Rock Island Ballistics bought....Magma Casters, Star's (with heaters, bullets feeds, and air cylinders), and a series of good game bullet molds for the Magma Casters. I use the equipment now just for a selcted group that hunt around here. I have given quite a few people the spec sheet so they could have molds cut.....and they have been satisfied with the results.....but I have also seen these designs picked apart by some that have never shot the bullets to see how they perform. But again, I say I am only involved in game bullets. There is lots of speculation out there indeed!
I have established in my mind the following:
(1) Tissue Damage is a product of Velocity and Meplat Area
(2) Penetration is a product of Velocity and Sectional Density
There ia a balance of the two that comes from Gut-Pile-Analysis. And there is a different set of rules for different hunting situations...there is no bullets that does it all!
Regards, James

[BD]

Ok, I'm looking for general guidlines to start. I've had real good luck killing things with a 70% meplat at at handgun velocities +/- 1,350 fps or so. Now I'm looking at rifle velocites closer to 2,000 fps. If I'm following this thread correctly, I should be looking at smaller meplats, and/or hollowpoints?

Intuitively I can understand how a smaller meplat at higher velocity will accomplish much the same work as the larger but slower meplat. What is not intuitive is why the larger meplat becomes less effective at higher velocities?

BD

[Dixie Slugs]

I will let those here that deal with cast bullets at 2000'/" answer you question....James

[helice]

James,

I'm still looking for the information concerning your tests of boolit noses hit by high pressure water streams. I'd like to see it in a post all by itself but I guess it would be ok to put it here.

There are enough of us on this forum who shoot cast all year at paper only to take one deer in the fall. I agree with the large meplat concept but would like to know what your water under pressure tests revealed. It would be interesting just to know how you put these tests together. Keep writin', I'm learnin'. Helice