Gates Extreme Meplat Bullets

[Dixie Slugs]

After reading Bass post, I can see now I do not qualify for any statements for cast bullets beyond what I have said. The reason is quite simple indeed...I have never considered using any cast bullet beyond what is considered brush gun distance as being a little over 100 yards. And any design I ever had mold cut for were to be used within that distance. Beyond that, I relied on jacketed bullet designs that had proven themselves.
I am not a paper or target shooter. Nor am I concerned much about the BC within the range I use cast bullets. I always have been more concerned with a bullet's lethal potential. And, while I did shoot at Camp Perry for years, never considered benchrest shooting with cast bullets. I would guess that one that shoots long range with cast bullets would have a design that matched proven jacket bullet designs....but I really do have a clue about that. Many of the things Bass spoke of apply also to jacketed bullets
I feel I was mistaken about what was the main goal here. I thought it was about game bullets....for that I apologize. Everything I have worked on was based on game bullets. When I started this thread by posting some specs for bullets I thought were good game bullets.....that is as far as my intentions went.
However, I will watch with interest as the dicussion broadens out to cover long range concepts.....James

[badgeredd]

First, I also would like to say "Good to see you Bass."

And I just subscribed to this thread. The reason? Well for once I am really enjoying the thoughts and comments.

Although I am new to casting (a year or so) I do have a comment that you all may want to consider. I took a single cavity 358315 mold and modified it to get a heavier boolit for my 35 rifles. I made it a flat nose design, with about 70% meplat, mainly because I goofed when I made the cutter. At any rate, I found it flies considerably better out of four 35 caliber (different cartridges) than the original 358315 round nose. Now I need to also say this is out to 100 yards. I'll load some and see what happens at 200 yards as soon as the weather warms a bit more.

IMHO, the fact that I am happy with the accuracy (at the range I've tested) means that boolit placement will be better. When I test said boolit on game, I may find it doesn't do well. By game, I mean deer. My gut feeling is that it'll do a good job, but that's entirely an opinion based on limited experience with cast boolits. When I get a chance, I'll post a good picture to show you what I ended up with.

Edd

James,

I too am interested mainly in how a boolit performs on game. Paper with holes doesn't taste that good to me, no matter how much bacon I put on it.

[badgeredd]

Here's a picture of my boolit, the one on the right.



Edd

[Bullshop]

I too was refering mostly to hunting boolits. For long range I was thinking to 300 yards. I was also talking rifles where I think James was aiming more at handgun.
So where are we going no? To long range for long range sake or to long range for hunting?
For long range only you need only look at the standard 22 LR RN. It is the most coppied basic design in use for BPCR long range and I mean long range. For hunting, well because they are being run soft between 20/1 and 50/1 lead/tin they expand so they do OK there too. But this is getting too far away from the origonal point. If anybody was to take a stab at an average of what is about the best combination of meplate and lenght/sd/weight however you want to look at that I would say 60 to 70 % meplate and between 2 to 3 calibers is a good place to be. The more length the les meplate. Launch speeds between 1300 to 1800 fps will do nicely depending on how far you are willing to shoot. With those averages at the extream accept for the meplate say a 60% with three calibers length at 1800 fps I would have no problem with a 300 yard shot even with a non expanding boolit. Other small details are just that. Some may feel that three calibers of length is excessive but thats the great part of all this,I can think what ever I want. Stick to an average or comprimise of what we know and you should get good results if you do a good job placing the shot.
If we were to try and carry a perfect cartridge for any situation it would get too confusing, ther would be so many. One cant be right for all so take the best average.
Now I will like to see what you all think is a good average. I will even narrow it down to 65% meplate and 2.5 calibers for muzzle velocity not below 1500 fps.
BIC/BS

[felix]

Speaking of the RPMs again, I can say for sure that the 30 cal boolit at 2100 with 12 twist -versus- the 32 at 2100 with 16 twist hitting water at the minimum angle as not to glance off, the advantage in killing power goes to the 32 cal without question. The consequential splash difference is easily seen. So, if the boolit is marginally stable after entering the game animal, the more significant RPM drop can very easily cause the projectile to simulate (via fish tail) a larger meplat without the flight disadvantage. Again, always use the mimimum amount of twist for the projectile which is realistic for the animal being taken. ... felix

[GLynn41]

What cal. bullshop? And by 2.5 cal to length you mean as in 2.5 x.411=1.3" or 370+ gr I guess by that you are still on your rifle -- and as i reread your post i see the300yds. oops sorry -- I tend to use my .358 wins with 200 to 250 gr JSP or 30.06 with 165sp-- I would like and intend to go to cast bullets for the 2 .358s I have-- so I have an interest there too.
Ok help here as to 20-150 yard +- - at Deerish animals
I have only .41 cal hand guns and a Marlin
meplat needs to come down some??? .75 to ??% or not-- one example given of the 265gr .44 used a .35+ meplat which I thought was pretty big as mine is 81% at.33
some what heavier than normal cal. weight.
TC design maybe more stable--
so what would an optimum for hand gun and carbine if it can exist-- .41 possibly weigh etc. How long a nose to crimp? Anyone? Dan at MM. told he likes long bearing surface-- multiple lube grooves and as was stated was using a 180 with a .325 nose and .80% meplat --only worked for him at max vel

The British used the term dwell time in WW2 preferring the .38 sp. with a 200gr to the .45 ACP
they said it was better to push a vault door with your hand vs hitting it hard and fast with your fist.

[Bullshop]

Felix
If that were true then why such a fast twist in 458win mag? I think standard is 1/14" and some even 1/12". If minimum were best they should be using 1/22" to 1/24".
Glynn41
I did muddy the water a bit combining rifle boolits and pistol boolits. Let me just say that for my choice for a 41 mag hunting boolit my mold drops a 300gn WFN in ww.
Thats only one mans comprimise.
Now jumping up to rifles I always felt the 405 win was handicapped with to light/short a bullet. My mold for that drops a 410gn LFN in ww. The differance there is potentail velocity the rifle having nearly 1000 fps more than the pistol with those boolit weights.
I have never killed anything with the 41 mag pistol but boy howdy dont that 405 do some kinda jog with that 410gn boolit with a 60% meplate when launched at 2000 fps.
I story lately is I have gotten away from all this and just shoot pure lead in paper patch.
That way it makes little differance in game what the nose shap was like before it hit.
Badgeredd
Can I get you to do my Lyman mold the way you did yours?
BIC/BS

[GLynn41]

Thanks bullshop for your thoughts--unless I hunt something larger than a deer -- a 220K at 1250 will sail right on through-- as does a 240 LBT tc and and my 255what ever- .400 nose- --280 ssk gr from any angle and a 170jhc will drive about 2 feet chest on into a 5pt from 65 steps/ --I have the NEI mold for the SSK 285gr TC -- .meplat is .280 -- I am going to run some off for the marlin-- my concern is the Marlin and my 41/445 -- is the .33 too much of good thing at the speed these will drive the bullit - and max vel is not my goal -- but a good hunting load for 0-150 yds or so is

[felix]

Dan, thick versus thin skinned game. ... felix

[Bullshop]

GLynn41
Our small dear, caribou are 500 to 600 lb for a bull and our big dear, moose are 1500 lbs for a good bull. My comprimise has to be a little differant than yours.
Felix
Oh yes the target makes a differance, as well I suspect as the bullets being nonexpanding round nose.
BIC/BS

[badgeredd]

Badgeredd
Can I get you to do my Lyman mold the way you did yours?
BIC/BS

Dan,

Tell you what I'd like to do for you. I can send you some samples and if you like them we can work something out on me modifying your mold. It wasn't really much to machine it, but I'd feel better about it if you had tried a few boolits first.

Edd

[leftiye]

Yep, good to read another of your convoluted brain twisting treatises Bass! Missed ya.

[Bullshop]

Badgeredd
OK great 5000 or 6000 should do it. Just kidding. So if the stock mold was 285gn then the modified must be over 300gn, yes?
I just recently had MM Dan cut one at about 275gn and it looks much like what you made. I would like to have one 300gn or over.
When Elmer praised the 35 Whelen he was generally talking about bullets between 270 and 300gn. I will be happy to swap ya something for the boolits and the work although I dont really think I need the boolits. I always thought the Lyman design would have been much better if they made it a flat nose so I dont use that one muct at all. I was rather disapointed with the group buy Bator in 35 cal. It seemed to have too low a velocity for good accuracy. Meplate maybe? Balance? I duno?!? Maybe hollow pointing it would make it sing. Anyway I would like to do something with you on that mold.
This thread seems to be winding down now but it was fun and I learned alot !
BIC/BS

[Bret4207]

Oh boy. Hurt feewings already. Seesh! Look, it's really pretty simple. One mans accuracy is another mans "couldn't hit the broad side of a barn". One guys long range will be 125 yards, anothers will be 350 and a thirds will be 45 yards in an alder swamp. One guys big game will be Antelope, another Elk, another Bison and someone else's will be a black bear or grizz. Lets not get our panties in a wad just because someone else has a differing opinion based on his locale or sport or platform. We've done this over and over. It's about time to get past it.

[Crass Whackwords]

there is no universal constant to bullet design.....Problem is that there is no constant in the universe.

Well put. As a wise man once told me, there are no universal truths when it comes to cast bullets.

Early in my casting career, I had a bad experience with Veral's ogival wadcutter, which refused to stabilize in my 44 at any speed or distance. It traumatized me for life, and to this day I get nervous when I see an extremely blunt and not particularly long cast bullet such as the type discussed on this thread. Yes, they work fine sometimes, but other times they don't. It's a gamble.

If you can get the short, blunt bullets to provide decent hunting accuracy, more power to you.

"Bass Ackwards" ????? Sounds familiar....... where have I heard that name before ???

[Bullshop]

In defence of the 265gn weight for the 44 cal Gates design I remember reading of the development of the 444 Marlin cartridge.
The guys with the white caots found that for 44 cal 265gn was a balance point where velocity was lost by adding more weight and so the trade off was in energy.
Thats why they used a slow twist and the heaviest factory rounds were 265gn.
Of cource now we know that paper energy figures are not all that important in determining killing power.
We now see 444 Marlins from the factory with quick twist barrels that will stabalise boolits in the 400gn weight range and there by place the cartridge in a completely different class.
I dont think the designers ever saw the 444 as being more than a dear cartridge, but it always had the potencial to be more. I think maybe one of the issues there is it was designed by white coats that were capable of wonderful things with a slide rule but had little on the ball as to feild experiance with cartridges showing less than spectacular paper balistics pushing heavy slow moving boolits of high sectional density say for instance the origonal 45/70/500 BP. Read anything you can find as far back as you can find it from and they almost use the same description for that cartridge and even its little brother the 405gn carbine load, "its always been a good dependable killer of game", period. Paper balistics may be what sell products but if you piled up all the dear and elk thats been killed with a 44/40 you couldnt see over the top if you stood on your house.
I see and understand that balance, the trade off of adding weight but for me espacially where I live and for what I may need to shoot with them I accept the trade off in paper balistics for the momentum gained by adding weight over the balance.
BIC/BS

[jhalcott]

I cast the 358318 from WW alloy and get a ready to shoot weight of just over 250grains. I have chucked the bullets in a drill and used a Dremel tool to cut off the round end (both bullet and cutter spinning). Thus tends to keep the cut square! I have shot many of these into wet paper and a few into deer with quite similar results. The RN's penetrate more and leave a smaller wound channel. The FNed bullets WILL go thru a deer or ~ 18" of wet pack and leaves a larger hole doing it. My muzzle velocity is around 2000 to 2100FPS. I have NOT had any reason to try this at longer than 200 yards. The gun is a Mauser actioned .35 Whelen with a light weight synthetic stock. A 3x9 scope is mounted. I truly have enjoyed reading this thread. I have learned quite a bit from it. Those "circumsized" bullets weigh about 242 to 245 grains as opposed to 251 to 255 normal weight. The load seems to be very good with either bullet!

[Bullshop]

Thats just the same effect that putting a small meplate on 22 LR RN ammo has.
Those tools to do that made a 22 lr way more effective on rabbits. Your using the same idea just on bigger rabbits.
BIC/BS

[Dixie Slugs]

Interesting indeed! When I posted the specs on the bullets, I did not specify they were handgun bullets. Their designs have been tested on game.
What we then saw was all matter of criticism about their design. That is all well and good, but as of yet I have seen no designs posted covering the three calibers that these critics feel are good hunting bullet. It's not a matter of hurt feelings or whatever. Is is a matter of taking shots at designs without the critics posting what they consider was the best design and why.
Until I see their designs and what they chose...... then I will assume that their critical statements are based on nothing more than speculation....or they resent some outsider on their turf....or whatever.
So...in all fairness, lets see first hand the designs that they feel are excellent handgun cast bullet designs....simple enough.
Regards, James

[GLynn41]

Bullshop we do have different deer-- my two biggest are both 200#+ pounds-- biggest I have ever seen killed was an 11pt our count and it weighed about 240 #--How do Caribou taste by the way?-- I hope to hunt a boar-- etc I have a list in my head to hunt --nothing really major-- I will not ever do it but I would like to hunt a Buff in Africa
I guess I will take what Veral told me and what was discussed here and look at a bullit design from Dan
as for the bigger game you have, all I know is what I have read -- that a .41 220gr Speer soft point will shoot through the ribs of a Moose and the guy who wrote that was happy with the .41 as a moose getter. I shoot news paper in plastic bags and look as much at the the bag as the paper-- I do know that the .41 255/.33 meplat will easily go through 20" of stuffed tight together newsprint at 50 yards -- not sure what that means except it goes through stuff. Personally I'd reckon it would take a bou just fine do not know about Moose