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Thread: Gates Extreme Meplat Bullets

  1. #81
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    i also recall reading stories of how the "hunters' of the time were casting with zinc in their lead,to add to their hardness for penetration.
    once the full metal jacket [full patch] hit the market a lot of the old went out and the new came in.
    then came over penetration [here in the states] and jacketed bullet development went hay wire.
    with over expansion and poor penetration being the common theme.
    so you just used a heavier bullet for better penetration.
    just because there was more mass to carry on through the animal,this was where elmer got the bigger is better for elk from.
    if you expand you can't punch through,and i think this influenced his cast boolit designs also.
    maybe just maybe his designs are better for bigger animals like elk and he figured the straight line thing was fine [compromise] for deer too.

  2. #82
    Boolit Master helice's Avatar
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    To whoever made this a sticky, My thanks.
    To all of you, Keep writin' cause I'm learnin' and that's why I'm here. Helice

  3. #83
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    That design is so near a full WC that I think it may have had stability issues, ESPECIALLY with black powder.
    This brings up another facet of design and that is in the ability to deal with fouling.
    I have been employed to cast some proven designs for muzzle loaders shooting bore diameter conicles. What I have been seeing is that with black powder the Keith nose (swc) rules. I had a couple molds cut using the OWC design (RF) and they performed poorly unless the barrel was cleaned between shots. As near as I could tell the OWC was riding up on the fouling and loosing its grip with the rifling.
    Going to black powder is going to an extream in fouling but smokless also produces fouling especially when powder is burned below its optimum pressure as we so often do in reduced pressure loading. I believe it is the sharp sholder the SWC that aids in fouling control from shot to shot.
    As for accuracy at long range it can be found but I think it will be aided by greater length (sd) than can be used in a revolver. I think that a much higher SD does dampen the wobble created by transitioning from supersonic to subsonic.
    As in that early design you have shown which we think as beautiful today it was just too far ahead of its time for the components available. At the time many were still not accepting smokless powder for thier reloading.
    I will go and see if I can find a pic of targets fired from a Sharps with a 50 cal 600gn Keith boolit. The ranges are 100 and 220 yards. I dont know at what range the boolit will go transonic but as you will see there are not stability issues with this boolit to 220 yards.
    Mostly I am just spouting ideas that are floating in my head and cant proove anything beyond my own satisfaction.
    Blessings
    BIC/BS

  4. #84
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  5. #85
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    Excellent indeed! The more that ideas are discussed, instead of cussed
    The more the possibility that a good design will come out. Todd Corder also like a shoulder that wll scrape out powder residue and some think the Keith shoulder seals/aligns the bullet in the handgun's chamber throat.
    There has been some thought, but no factual tests yet....that by increasing the bullet's spin it (and weight) would aid in going from super-sonic to sub-sonic...interesting!
    The biggest problem I see in many present designs...is people thinking one design works for all hunting situation!
    And.....many times leaning on the heavy weight too much. There is where some of us feel there is an ideal sectional density per caliber based on the velocity. Veral mentioned it, but I don't see where he followed through on it.
    As shooter/hunters, many are hung up on the BC of bullets. I even saw one time where a poster thought the BC aided in penetration.....without mentioning Sectional Density or Velocity.
    There are some facts we all can agree on. One is the Meplat Area (expanded jacket bullet or non-expanding hard cast) is related to tissue damage . Another is Sectional Density related to penetration. That goes along way with basic designs.
    Beyond that, it get into refinements.
    Just some thoughts...James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  6. #86
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    Wet vertisol clay has been a fairly good medium for testing a boolit versus velocity. You can adjust meplat, sectional density, and velocity according to the amount of splash desired with little effort. ... felix
    felix

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie Slugs View Post
    As shooter/hunters, many are hung up on the BC of bullets. I even saw one time where a poster thought the BC aided in penetration.....without mentioning
    Agreed! Many are not willing to put in the time to shoot at distance to see what their boolit/gun will do and spend the time to get accustomed to it. Shooting a few rounds at the bench, then looking up drop in a ballistic table, based on ballistic coefficient and velocity, is plain lazy,. Ballistic tables, like reloading manuals, are great reference and should be appreciated, but are no substitute for real trigger time.

    I can already see that this thread, while extremely informative, should really be broken down into several subcategories. We all pretty much agree that one design, alloy, weight for caliber, hardness, expansion properties, revolver/rifle, velocity, critter, et all will not cover it. This is book-grade material that should have chapters dedicated to species like deer and then both cast rifle and handgun boolits discussed. Each critter deserves its own chapter like hogs and elk including differences in their vitals location and such. Much could be learned, or correctly stated, re-learned.

  8. #88
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    I agree and will discuss Hog Ballistics, if we go that route.....James
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  9. #89
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    James another thing I like to consider in the equasion of tissue damage is rate of deceleration of the projectile in tissue.
    Of cource ROD will be determined by the frontal area expanding or non expanding, And sectional density. The differance between the expanding and non is that the expanding nose is never a constant and very hard to control.
    A non expandint wide meplate is a constant that can have verying degrees of perminant wound chanels depending on the rate of deceleration in tissue.
    A good way to see this in action is by using the three mold series from RCBS. They have a 45 cal 325, 425, and 525gn series with exactly the same nose profile but with progressivly longer shank as they get heavier. They can be fired so as to have the same impact velocity in a test media to determin weather or not ROD does effect the perminent wound channel diameter. Impact velocities being equal the lighter boolit will have a higher ROD than the heavier and should produce a lesser volume of displacment to the channel, or perminant wound channel. I am going to put my money on the 525gn causing the greatest volume of displacment impact velocity being equal. The RCBS has always proven to be a most excellent design rather combining the RF nose shape but having a slight sholder ahead of the crimp groove.
    Sorry if I have taken this thread to places other than revolver but since I do provide a wide range of designs for many different shooters with many differant perposes I tend to look at a broader application for design. I am having fun with this though.
    Blessings
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    Last edited by Bullshop; 03-13-2009 at 08:31 PM.

  10. #90
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    OOPS! I forgot to mention about the increased twist thingy. I agree that it should/will help the transonic passage. BUT! Always a but isnt there, but that runs into the catch 22 with limiting velocity for boolits.
    The old BP guns used just enough twist because they were dealing with fouling build up.
    With BP more twist means more fouling. Thats why there was two 30/30's one with fast twist for smokless powder and one with slow twist for BP (32 special).
    Even now getting away from the soft boolits alloys and BP of long ago the twist rate can still be a limiting factor in determining top velocity for any given boolit design.
    Since velocity is directly related to pressure and accuracy dependant on the shear limits of the alloy to maintane its hold/seal with the grooves and increasing the twist increases the pressure the quicker twist will have a lower maximum velocity for good accuracy. WOW!!! I hope I said that right. So its a trade off if you give it more spin you have to be willing to accept a lower max velocity for top accuracy.
    A drastic example I think is the 6.5 cruis missel for the quick twist milsurp rifles that was a GB here quite some time back. I think it was determined that it had a max velocity for accuracy of abot 1700 fps.
    Once that boolit skids even just a smidg and the land cut in the boolit is wider than the land for the full length of the bearing surface the accuracy game is over and the leading game begins.
    There is a balance there in how much twist can a certain hardness of alloy and certain length of boolit tolerate. I have seen some boolits that the land cut looked like a wedg being way wider at the leading edge then narrowing to just land width at the base. That to me would mean that that boolit was right at the ragged adge of holding the seal.
    Thats why I have such trouble putting any faith in a gain twist barrel for boolits.
    When ot come to keeping them flying point on through air turbulance or tissue I do believe more twist will help. That is why I believe they use such quick twists in dangerous game rifles, to keep a non expanding bullet spinning point forward to hopefully insure a straight path for the bullet.
    Thats one reason Elmer trounced on the 30/06 with 220gn bullets. He felt the long bullet was not stable enough to depend on straight line penitration. A bullet that is margonally stable can do some crazy things when it hits something.
    Well now I dont know how I got from wfn pistol boolits to the 30/06 220's but somehow I managed. Forgive me folks it seems I may have a touch of that ADD's I have heard about. Hope yall still love me even so.
    Blessings
    BIC/BS

  11. #91
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    I really do not think anyone cares if we drift as long as it concerns cast bullets.
    Now...ROD! We have not been able to prove/disprove that the ROD relates to tissue damage, even though it appears to relate somehow. This ROD moves over to the thoughts of "Dwell Time" the bullet is moving through tissue. Some feel that the longer dwell time give more time for an Energy Deposit. As I mentioned, we saw first hand, when dealing with an extra large Meplat Area, that at some point in velocity there was a decrease in penetration, but a larger cavity....we still have not figured that one out? Otherwords, there was a faster ROD. Todd Corder, John Linebaugh, and I dicussed this in detail. it appears that at some point the Meplat Area gets to a point it can not move the uncompressed water in tissue (Pressure) and slows down. Of course, that the reverse of most thinking. In that case there was no expansion (so the sectional density remained the same) and the only thing that changed was the velocity between 1300'/" and 1400'/". This may apply also to a bullet expanding?????If this continues, it could be said that penetation at a distance from the muzzle that the bullet slowed down to 1300'/" it would penetrate deeper...how about that? The Terminator design is almost a full wad-cutter....and this did not show up on our truncated nose designs!
    To me...there is no difference when we talk about cast bullets, whatever the size.
    I will say this though....the larger the Meplat Area, the more likely to have nose expansion (or shearing, depending on the alloy).
    We are getting into a foggy area that none of the past cast bullet designers reached indeed. The only way these questions will ever be answered will be from a collective effort and not pissing on each other's bunk bed.
    The next question comes to my mind. is just how important all this is to the hunter/shooter? I have come to one place...bullets for handgun ranges and bullet for longer ranges....but still in reasonable brush gun situations. Beyond that I use todays great jacket bullet designs.
    However, this has turned into a great thread indeed!
    Regards, James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  12. #92
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    black powder influencing elmers design..... that was something i never considered.
    i do recall he used to grind b/p into smaller particles to get more into the baloon head cases he had. [also the reason he went to the 44 because it had thicker cylinder walls]
    and his square grooves was to carry ,and distribute more lube.
    interesting here as my 44 does shoot the swc g/c design better[half the group size] at further distances [100-150 yds] then it does the rnfp.
    i will be testing an old lyman keith type against the rnfp i currently use in my 45 colt this summer.
    these two boolits are equal[weight within 5 grs,lube groove size and location,crimp groove to base distance and base band length] except for the nose design.
    even in my jacketed loads i have become a fan of middle of the road bullets and velocities.
    7 mauser at 27-2800 fps and 140 gr cup and core's it seems to work just fine on deer ,elk,and coyotes.
    i went through a period of studying bullets and finally come to the concclusion that matching velocity to the construction of the bullet is a dang good way to get performance.
    how this relates to cast to me anyways is that i stick mainly to the nominal weight for the gun and drive it at nominal velocities, this is where the design [shape] takes over.
    penetration and smoosh is what i want,as i always aim at the exit side of the animal.
    i also wonder if the wfn boolits aren't expanding but if the nose is slumping to the side giving the appearance of expansion.

  13. #93
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
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    It's hard for me to accept that putting a little step on the nose of a bullet causes it to be more accurate at any distance than one without that step....all other things being equal. If anything is happening it would be in alignmnet in a revolvers chamber throat? On the other hand, I have a .431265 bullet without the step and has a truncated cone that shooters found extremelly accurate out of the Marlin 1894 guns. I think it comes back to the Meplat Area. As I remember, Elmer's 428421 had only a .280" meplat...and we had game run off with that bullet...to be trailed up with our dogs in the swamps. Even Elmer, in his Sixguns, stated he watched to where the game went down. That might work in open country, but would be a disaster in thick swamps indeed.
    So...where are we now with all this? Have we established anything or just clouded the issue more?
    I think it would be excellent if we sum up what we agree on. Someone go first and list our agreemnts.
    Regards, James
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  14. #94
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    i will agree on at least 65% meplat is critical in performance.
    not so sure what a shoulder will get you though.
    i think a radius of sorts helps too.
    and i also think dwell time plays a role.
    but do wonder about air currents.
    and muzzle/striking velocity is important,as well as alloy composition.
    still on the fence about hollow pointing. maybe in a 30 cal but not necessary in the bigger cals 44 plus...

  15. #95
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    Yes Sir a very interesting thread, one that it will take my mind some time to properly digest.
    For sure though the one most important factor in killing anything with any shape of bullet/boolit is shot placment.
    Of cource being true Americans we want every advantage we can get so the search for the best is and always will be ongoing.
    Truth is folks have been getting the job done for a long time with what we may consider rather inefficiant designs.
    The big differance is that they were generally woodsman of a true order and hunted of neccessity and so took the hunting part to a higher degree of efficiancy than most do or can today. Today the industry have a far greater push to shooting than to hunting. I find it rather appaling that the gun mags and makers would have everyone believe they can efficiantly harvest game at extream range if only they would buy a cartain line of products from a certain company.
    There was a time when within the industry if it was not practacle it was not made/offered but we have left that idea far behind. When hunting became a sport/game it bacame what all the other sports games became, a win at any cost proposition where killing is everything and hunting just an unpleasant part of the game.
    We can all use the combined knowledge posted in this thread to make some basic choices to our advantage but still the greatest advantage is to a hunter that has learned to get close and presicely place a shot to where it will do the most good, that is hunting in the truest sence.
    Some folks even choose to enjoy that flavor to a higher degree by using primative weapons and I aplaud them because what they seek is not only the kill but the hunt and the person it brings out in us.
    Yes and enjoyable thread, the most fun I have had typing in qute some time.
    Thank you all!
    God bless!
    BIC/BS

  16. #96
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    Excellent Indeed! Now let's get our folks talking about cast bullets and different game.....based on gut-pile-analysis.....not speculation!
    Regards, James
    Last edited by Dixie Slugs; 03-05-2011 at 01:56 PM.
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  17. #97
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    I think for the most part we are all stumbling around the "boolit effectiveness" design issue basing our thinking on our own experience, or anecdotal experience gleaned from others whom we trust. I think to get further, while keeping the conversation going, we need to quantify some variables we feel are significant and try some more organized testing. Unfortunately molds cost money, so cutting a bunch of like design molds while varying a single aspect may not be practical, unless we can enlist the help of a couple of mold makers. As an example: We could certainly have a mold cut with gas check depth lube grooves and then mill it shorter in stages while testing penetration. We could probably have a mold cut and then have the meplat % expanded in stages while testing it as well, as so on. I am not capable of cutting molds, but I can contribute ideas, and maybe some $$ for blocks.

    However, there are already a great number of flat nosed designs out there in .44 and .45, some quite similar. If we can agree on what we feel are the critical variables, we may be able to share boolits from our individually owned molds to assemble a group adaquate to test each of the variables.

    I also feel that external ballistics and terminal ballistics may be somewhat unrelated, and whats good for the goose may not always be good for the gander.

    I think we could all agree on the following to start: Meplat %, sectional density, ogive design, (and I include TC designs here), HP or not and velocity.

    I'm also willing to discuss hog ballistics, although I think I've pretty much exhausted my experience there down in the "Cast Boolits for Hunting" room.

    It's great to have a good, thought provoking thread that actually is right on topic for a change. My goals do not include "settling" any issues here, but they do include learning some things.
    BD

  18. #98
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    I will comment here because I was asked to read this thread by a friend and he will be expecting an answer.

    The very thing that takes us so long (many years) to realize is that there is no universal constant to bullet design. 1. There are those designs that launch better. With better defined on how and what we are doing to it or put it through. 2. There are better designs for the nature of flight once it has left your barrel and is no longer controlled.

    Elmer believed that accuracy peeked at somewhere between 62% and 64% with his design. And the truth is, that at the hardness he was using, and the velocity his load produced, he is ABSOLUTELY correct. Had Elmer cut back on the amount of unsupported nose weight on his bullet or widened his front band even more, he could have successfully widened his meplat and his experience would have been all different. But Elmer wanted excellent flight charastics for long distances after it left his control. So we have what he found with weight off the nose and balance toward the rear.

    Dan at Mountain Molds was trying to launch a 35 caliber 180 grainer with an 80% meplat in an LBT style and was getting 6" groups from his 357 Mag lever. I told him to recut the exact same bullet at 75%, and he dropped to 2" groups. So is 75% the maximum? No. But it is under his conditions.

    Problem is that there is no constant in the universe. Just like there is no one magic load. There are those that work better than others across many situations, but hand them off to someone else and they might believe the design / load sucks. No benchrest competition for accuracy is shot with a wide meplat bullet. None. That speaks volumes, so how what do we need to take away from that fact? There is no blueprint to go buy, only an understanding that you apply logic too. As soon as a person believes that they have found the holy grail, someone else comes along and things change. Or visa versa. Veral Smith reincarnated bullet designs from the 1800s and now gets credit for the olgival designs as Keiths did for all semiwadcutters. Neither is true.

    I have guns that handled designs very poorly when new causing me to cuss the designs only to find out that 5000 or 20,000 rounds later, or after I corrected alignment that these have become my stallwarts. I have loads that I would put money on out to as far as I have tested them only to shoot at some longer range and laugh at what went wrong.

    What makes a bullet launch well? Launching is a product of alignment defined as: until the nose encounters uncontrolled air patern at the muzzle with the base breaking square with the bore so pressure doesn't affect launch. Then the design has to establish a stable air flow pattern before the strength of the lead bullet that remains in the barrel .... fails. If it does, you get a good launch. Or you will need more RPMs. If it doesn't, then accuracy suffers which is why Veral states that his designs do best when pushed hard and in the heaviest weights. If you want to shoot lighter bullets, then you better learn how to compensate, buy well aligned guns, or you will have / launch a finicky bullet. Just that simple.

    What makes a bullet fly well? Every design, because of it's BC and balance point will require a certain RPM / velocity combination out to the range of interest. And that is the "ultimate key" to understand. Generally, the wider the nose, the lower the BC and the faster velocity loss will upset your plans. Again, if you launch really heavy per caliber bullets and don't shoot over 200 yards, then you don't see what all the fuss is about. If you shoot lighter designs or longer distances, then you either need to get lucky. Or learn to love semiwadcutters, round nose bullets, or smaller meplat designs. Or even gas checked designs as this strengthens the deisgn to launch well.

    So when you hear someone comment positively or negatively about a bullet design, you can pretty much figure out what velocity range he operates in, how hard of a bullet he shoots, what barrel length he shoots, and how well aligned his chambers are to his bore. Cause all of this affects the quality of his launch. When you hear how well it does at long range, you know how successfull he has been, for long range is the true test of flight.

    Long range is defined as long for the ballistic coefficient you are launching. You have much more flexibility with a smaller diameter than a large one as the wind resistance on the nose has less force / effect to rip it off coarse from the bore until RPMS stabilizes it. The poorer you launch, the more air you catch and the more RPMS you will need to stabilize. Which is why most guys with handguns find best accuracy right near the top end for what ever they are shooting. Hides a lot of sins.
    Reading can provide limited education because only shooting provides YOUR answers as you tie everything together for THAT gun. The better the gun, the less you have to know / do & the more flexibility you have to achieve success.

  19. #99
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    OK then by gut pile analysis I guess you mean autopsy results.
    Well Sir no can help with the hogs but maybe elswear. I never kept a log or anything like that, it didnt seem that important at the time. I thought I would just be forever young and always able to tramp the hills. Hows that go, too soon old and too late smart.
    I will just have to grab at the memories as they pop into my head if I am to be of any help.
    Here is one, a mid sized black bear shot with B00 with the RCBS 45/425, BHN-20, 1800fps muzzle velocity.
    Bear running straight away and at say 75 yards turns braod side and heads up hill. The instant the bear turned B00 fired and took him through the lungs just behind the sholder.
    Bear continues on up hill where it turns to face me laying acrost a stump. I spot the bear looking down at me so fire again hitting this time right beside the eye. Bear does nothing, couldnt, already dead.
    The first shot took out both lungs but made only two 45 holes in the hide, in and out. Second shot did the same but from south to north, may have also contributed to some of the mess in the lungs. Thats all I got on that one, analyse.
    OH OH heres a good one, large bull moose shot with 1886 50 cal with 510gn WFN at 1750 muzzle. Range about 170yards<bhn-15. High sholder/lung hit crumples moose. Very unusual for moose to crumple without a spine hit. Moose struggles to his feet so a second shot is placed about 1" from the first with the same results moose crumples.
    Both shots are high sholder hits perhaps a bit too high but the crumpling thing is amazing to see from the fat 50 cal boolit, and to hear the hits SMAK.
    Amazingly moose struggles to his feet again so a third 50 to the neck from close range ended the sceen. Top half of lungs wipped out, neck shattered, no boolits recovered all passed through.
    Maybe you guys better stop me. I am having too much fun with this and likely not contributing to your goal.
    My goal is to stay here til Jesus comes for me and until he does to let his light shine.
    Blessings
    BIC/BS

  20. #100
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    Good ta see ya Bass

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check