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Thread: Gates Extreme Meplat Bullets

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie Slugs View Post
    Moderator.....Please remove this thread and any other posts or threads I have answered or started....Thank you, James
    Please do not James, everyone has turned into a gentleman and this can open a discussion on WFN stability at long range. Stay with us James and show long range results with your boolit designs.
    I do not agree with the instability stuff because I shoot them to 500 meters.
    Hardcast likes the boolits so let us show him stability is still there as far as anyone cares to shoot them IF THEY MATCH THE TWIST with drive length.
    Go back and read my results on deer and give me your input on high velocity and too hard a boolit.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master OBXPilgrim's Avatar
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    With what I've read - and seen, with my modified 358627 - hollowpoints seem to have an uncanny ability to stabilize a boolit as well. Some that have mentioned it have talked about the center of gravity shift and others have talked about another frontal pressure bubble.

    So, has anyone tried the WFN with varying sizes of HPs?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBXPilgrim View Post
    With what I've read - and seen, with my modified 358627 - hollowpoints seem to have an uncanny ability to stabilize a boolit as well. Some that have mentioned it have talked about the center of gravity shift and others have talked about another frontal pressure bubble.

    So, has anyone tried the WFN with varying sizes of HPs?
    That will be in the works this summer for my 45-70. I don't see any difference in accuracy between my WFN and the Hornady HP bullets so I don't expect a big change.

  4. #24
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    I agree please don't delete this. I think everyone can learn something from this. I know there were other people working on bullet designs at the same time that E.K. was. Just like there were other people working with higher powered 44 loads. We just don't hear about them as much. Hell I was only about 3 years old at that time so can only respond about what I have read about!!!!!!
    Also James must be a little older than I thought, so maybe we can all benifit from some of his experince. So James please share some more of your thoughts and experinces.
    Now Bullshop please don't go away either as you have a lot to contribute here also......
    Wes
    The problem in America today is, there are to many fools making to many rules that don't apply to themselves. Now just wait until the new pres. takes office and see what happens!!!!!

  5. #25
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    Wes did you know that Dick Casull was blowing up Colt single action army's befoer Elmer in developing the 454.
    His first 454 loads were put up in 45 colt cases with steel bushings in the primer pockets to reduce the diameter to small rifle. He was firing them in custom 5 shot cylenders with triplex loads of unique, 2400, and bullseye.
    There was a 230gn load at 2000 fps from 2gn unique,25gn 2400,and 3gn bullseye, WOW!!! The Ackley book also shows a 250gn triplex with 2gn unique on the primer then 25gn 2400, then another 2gn unique on top for a kicker doing 1890 fps, CARUMBA! In a 45 colt case in a colt SAA, CARUMBA!!
    They show the same load with a 300gn bullet at 1710 fps.
    They show the first two loads in a 20" 1892 winnie at 2315, and 2185 respectavily.
    This was all about the same time S&W was comming out with the model 44 mag.
    I used to work for Erve Malnorich who was Elmers partner in a packing venture when they were both very young. Erv had an outfitting business in what is now the Bitterroot Sellway wilderness, this before the wilderness act that paid him .50 per acre and the feds burned the place down.
    Anyway Elmer sent Erv one of two tool room non serial number 44 mag N frames to try on elk. These guns were smooth sided with no logo or numbers of any kind. Erv would guarante a 6 point bull from his service. Erv shot a few elk and reported to Elmer and Elmer wrote them up for the mags. I tried to get that gun from Erv but he said he would be burried with it. Most of us knew the story about the 44 but I was surprised to find out that Dick Casulls work went back that far too. The 454 didnt really take off until Dick got a partner with money to invest and they developed thier own frame.
    All pretty interesting stuff. Sorry if I got a bit off track there. I am more than just a bit fond of cartridges that came out in 55 like the 44 mag, 358 win, and the 6mm rem.
    Ya see thats the same time I was made.
    Blessings
    BIC/BS

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
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    Excellent indeed! It shows what I have known for some years and that is was people. workig for the industry and out, that did a great deal of work that others (maimly the Rag wrirers) took credit for.
    In 1972, as Vice-Pres & Director of Marketing of the former Smith & Wesson Ammo Co, I saw a parade of people that took the work of Ted Curtis and Bob Evans (and others).....and wrote it up as their shotgun tests, etc.
    There was a "dead zone" for working on cast bullets for me from about '66 to '74.
    During that period we developed the S&W/Fiocchi Waterfowl Magnun along with the entire line of S&W Ammo. When Fiocchi and S&W fell out, I went with Fiocchi.
    Later back to WW.
    Early on, we had trouble with animals running off after shot with the early Keith style designs,,,,and used our dogs to trail up shot hogs and deer. Elmer even wrote that he watch some game shot go a couple of hundreds before going down....OK in open country but a no-go in swamps and dense cover. by '73 we knew it was the lack of Meplat Area, but had gotten sidetracked with jacketed handgun bullets that were hot then. Even then, most of the present hollow points looked good, but did not expand.
    Some keep working in the background on cast though. It was during those days that developments in modern shotshells were being written up by Sells, Zutz, Labisty and others....theyvhad followed with what the company boys were doing and the articles they wrote are classics now.
    No one really knew that the Former Alcan's Ted Curtis and Bob Evans (and others) were really behind it all.....so it go's
    Then Veral can along with his work and the testings at the gun and ammo bunch took off again. Walt, at NEI, cut all manner of cherries!
    S&W/Fiocchi bought the rights on the BRI sug thinking it would work with smoothbores....it sure did not! I got sidetracked on big conicals for shotgun bores.
    That interest is my prime work today, but I have the old molds, except one mold I worked on coming from the early days of the 41 Mag. Marshall Stanton's boy Alex has it as a gift.
    Most of those involved early with cast are now dead and gone! The true story has been forgotten.....or people do not want to know it!
    Attached is a picture for you all to consider. .....James
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails big_meplat.jpg  
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  7. #27
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    I like the picture, thanks. Think I will print a few coppies to hang about in my shop.
    Now I have a question about it.
    Would you please list for me in order of importance the things that will cause the perminant wound chanel to be larger.
    meplate diameter
    impact velocity
    terminal velocity
    angle of cone nose
    weight
    I feel that the weight because it adds momentum will yeald a more consistant terminal velocity through the medium so the wound chanel should be wider for a longer depth.
    A lighter (faster) boolit may initially produce a steeper angle of displacment but because the terminal velocity is reduced by drag more quickly the channel will taper off to boolit diameter or less than if it stops in the media or is slowed substantially.
    I guess what I am really looking for is an optimum of meplate, impact velocity, boolit weight, and nose angle or length per caliber.
    I think they all work together and know that the meplate is importent but I also place great importance on the momentum to maintane a higher terminal velocity.
    An optimal impact velocity must exist but in huntig is difficult to guarantee. The best we can do is to start out high enough that at the max range we are willing to shoot it will still be carrying the minimum acceptable.
    I just love this stuff. Thank you for leaving it up.
    Blessings
    BIC/BS

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
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    You know...I have spoken of a balance between meplat area/ impact velocity/sectional densiy for some time....but as you know nailing that down is not easy indeed. I think the answer is a lot more of gut-pile-analysis! Weight/momentum/penetration is related to Sectional Densisty, as most accept. then we get into dwell time the bullet is in a game animal....if that factor even exists. Now....I am not trying to be evasive, we both know it is hard to pin down. We can look at ballistic gel forever...and at best it will tell how it appears that one design factors vs another. Most of these arm chair fellows do not even understand that the tissue itself (and how much fat) differs animal to animal....different animals. Some like a true wild hog has a dryer tissue than say deer. Since Meplat Area is very important based on the water content in tissue.....a bullet that works on one will not/may not work on another.
    And here is were the problem exists indeed. I agree that a bullet design must have momentum/sectional density to drive deep or through an animal. Early bullet designers for dangerous game, like Taylor, Hunter, and Thornily, were dealing most with roundnose solids. We know now that a hemi nose "swims" in tissue and creates no ballistic bubble. They got the penetration they needed by combining sectional density and a hemi nose....and that servred "their" purpose.
    Now....we know that tissue damage is related to Meplat Area..in both an expanded bullet and non-expanding bullet. As has been said...to much expansion (or Meplat Area) with a high impact velocity....may give a quick large cavity, but little penetration....bad on large and/or dangerous game! The understanding of the factors of hard cast continues today! Each person along the way added to the knowledge...Elmer, Veral, and others.
    Let's take one caliber...the 44 magnum for example. The ideal velocity of 1500'/" in a handgun and 1800'/" in a short rifle......seems (note I say seems) to be a weight about 265 grs. Combine that with a Meplat about .350"/375" and everthing seems to come together. Then you can staircase up through the various
    44 calibers....the weight (sectional density) increase related to the % increase in velocity.....keeping the same meplat area...think about that.
    However, I really do not know if this applies to other calibers...but I think it does.
    The picture of the ballistic bubble would be constant (as with the torpedo) if the speed/velocity were constant, but would change as the bullet's velocity slows in tissue. It may be related to the speed of sound speed.velocity????
    After long conversations with Todd Corder (Linebaugh Seminar) and the tests they did....the very large meplats went though some nose wobble as it became sub-sonic. So.....It had to do with something? The interesting fact is it did not happen with a truncated cone nose and large meplat! That's something for all you to think about.
    What all this boils down to...is there are some that are working on the advanced cast bullet designs today! There are so many factors involved that it becomes very confusing.
    Today's smart hard cast bullet designer matches his bullet designs to the hunting situation....such a closer range range handgun hunting (say 75 to 100 yards) and this is were a very large Meplat Area (and sectional density) comes into play! If the same caliber is used in a rifle (or the super handguns) it's best to reduced the Meplat Area and go with a truncated cone nose design.
    You see....it's all is still progressing! What is really needed is an open mind and more gut-pile-analysis!
    Regards, James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullshop View Post
    I like the picture, thanks. Think I will print a few coppies to hang about in my shop.
    Now I have a question about it.
    Would you please list for me in order of importance the things that will cause the perminant wound chanel to be larger.
    meplate diameter
    impact velocity
    terminal velocity
    angle of cone nose
    weight
    I feel that the weight because it adds momentum will yeald a more consistant terminal velocity through the medium so the wound chanel should be wider for a longer depth.
    A lighter (faster) boolit may initially produce a steeper angle of displacment but because the terminal velocity is reduced by drag more quickly the channel will taper off to boolit diameter or less than if it stops in the media or is slowed substantially.
    I guess what I am really looking for is an optimum of meplate, impact velocity, boolit weight, and nose angle or length per caliber.
    I think they all work together and know that the meplate is importent but I also place great importance on the momentum to maintane a higher terminal velocity.
    An optimal impact velocity must exist but in huntig is difficult to guarantee. The best we can do is to start out high enough that at the max range we are willing to shoot it will still be carrying the minimum acceptable.
    I just love this stuff. Thank you for leaving it up.
    Blessings
    BIC/BS
    I for one have no pat answer! Meplat is VERY important but from what I have been seeing, there is an optimum velocity range.
    My .44 with the hard cast WLN (320 to 330 gr) at around 1316 fps destroys lungs and blood pours on the ground, deer seldom make 30 or 40 yd's.
    The .45 Colt busts deer as good with heavy, hard cast WLN or WFN boolits (335 to 342 gr) going 1167 fps.
    The .475 is best of all at around 1340 fps and either the WLN or WFN (400 to 430 gr) just smashes deer, most hard put to make 20 yd's.
    The best part is that internals are destroyed but meat damage is mild and just a little trim is needed around the holes.
    As soon as I get over 1600 fps in the 45-70 (317 to 378 gr), things change drastically with little blood sign, sometimes no blood on the ground for a long distance, deer going 100 to 200 yd's. An 80% meplat did not help. Too many deer tested to make me want to try another.
    What happens with a WFN, hard cast at 1800 to 2000 fps?
    Sure, shoot the deer at 200 or more yd's and they become killers again but what happens to the 30 yd deer? How many guys would revolver hunt at 200 or more yd's?
    We have much to learn and I have been doing the testing on animals where it counts. Theory and shooting into test media proves nothing.
    Some are just going the wrong way looking for faster and faster boolits, after all, flat trajectory with a revolver is a silly thing to look for unless you are shooting targets.
    It is better to look for heavier boolits at the correct velocities to make use of a large meplat and gain penetration.
    As far as nose angle I firmly believe you want a good fit to the forcing cone and forget about it's effect on boolit flight. The boolit needs to stay straight when it impacts the cone. That is why I do not like the Keith because the first thing to hit is the little shoulder. The nose provides no guidance.
    Accuracy??? I can keep all of my 45-70 revolver boolits on a ram at 500 meters by aiming at a tree branch 26 or more feet, depending on the boolit, above the ram using a red dot. Does the WLN or WFL shoot poor at range? Can't prove it by me!
    Killing power at the higher velocity---ZILCH, need expansion to slow it in the animal. Notice guns like the .454 and .460 depend on jacketed bullets to kill. Too fast for hard cast. They need heavy boolits slowed down and is why a .45 Colt will do the job as well once the .454 and .460 are slowed down.

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    Thank youse all for a most engrossing, and informative thread. James, ya gotta take it all with a little aspirin, yeah, we'll give you headaches. A lot of us here think we know something too. So join us for enjoyable explorations at the cutting edge.

    I'm watching 44man's exploration of velocity working against killing power and occurring at a given velicity. Variations on this claim have been around for a long time (there may just be some substance there). AND it is indisputable that slow moving big bore guns have killed admirably forever. A 58 cal muzzleloader of mine in the hands of one of my friends produced a large bull elk doing the two step (two steps, lay down and die) at 200 yards. It (the boolit - a 500 grain cast grain spire point) couldn't have been moving very fast when it hit.
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  11. #31
    Boolit Master BABore's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    I'm a firm believer in a boolit that has the following features;

    - Heavy for caliber
    - 65% to 75% Meplat
    - Alloy that is heat treatable yet 3% or less antimony
    - Hollow point cavity that 1/2 to 2/3rds the nose length

    I agree that the impact velocity will affect the meplat's effectivness. That's why I like to combine a good meplat with a shallower HP. At higher velocity, where the meplat is less effective, the HP will expand rapidly. The shallower cavity depth will reduce over-expanding to some degree while the heavy-for-caliber boolit you start with will still have enough shank for good penetration. If you blow the nose off of a 420 gr, 460 dia. boolit, you will still have 350 to 375 grains of shank. The lower antimony alloy will allow any expansion to stay more intact rather than fragment and rivet. At longer ranges, where velocity is lower, the HP is somewhat negated. Now the large meplat can act as it should.

    As far a the nose profile, James and I will forever argue about a truncated verses ogival nose. Can't say I can disprove his tests and theorys, The ogival nose is just my personnal preference. Based on the meplat/cavity illustration posted above, I could argue that an ogival nose might be buffeted less than the trucated nose. If the ogive matches the flow pattern around the nose, would it not be more stabile in flight? Less apt to jink around as the side flow is surrounding the nose rather than making a null area on each side? Just guessing here, but wouldn't any yawing inbalance these null areas and make things worse. Don't know for sure. so I'm just hanging it out there.

    44Man,

    I just mailed you out a little goodie box so you can test some of these theories for yourself.

  12. #32
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    One of my favorite examples of this sectional density = penetration = killing power is the venerable 6.5 swede with its long heavy "cruise missle" bullets as loaded by Lapua and Norma. Not much velocity and the BC is low but it is a known killer of elk, caribou and moose.
    Marty-hiding out in the hills.

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
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    No. I do not think there is an arguement over an ogival vs truncated nose as far as what happens going sub-sonic...I would lean towad a flow on the nose....but to how much difference is to be seen.
    Where as I think the truncated nose is best in tissue. Since test show no wobble with the truncated nose going sub-sonic...I have stayed with it.
    But what are we talking about...testing or designing bullets? As said before, I do not think there is a design to match all situations. About 10/11 years ago when I retired...I pull out all my notes going back to 1956 on cast bullets and old molds. I then decided to re-develop two designs for three calibers.....35, 44, and 45. one design was based on a extreme meplat and the other a truncated cone. This was based on the previous mentioned hunting situations....close and distance.
    I am well aware that there are those here that have a great deal of knowledge, but there is a better way to disagree at times than I have seen.... and consider that there may be other knowledgeable people beside your family of regulars. It is very easy to be critical at someone else's design.
    I would really like to see others post their designs indeed!..and then back it up with something besides speculation.
    At Dixie, we are now deeply involved in designs for full bore 12 and 20 bore conicals...and I assure you that's uncharted water. What I have seen from actual public tests at the John Linebaugh Seminar on various designs....there still is a relationship that applies somewhat to smaller cast designs. but, we are talking about performance with 150 yards on large and/or dangerous game.
    Yes indeed, I would like to see other's designs posted with an explanation as to why they feel theirs is best and to what extent. Then maybe, as you say, they would have to take an BC powder......James
    Last edited by Dixie Slugs; 03-09-2009 at 05:07 PM.
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  14. #34
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    Thank you Babore.
    You are correct and that is what I will use next season, 50-50, water dropped with a shallow hollow point. All the boolit needs do is spread a little on impact, nothing drastic.
    How far do you want me to shoot what you are sending?

  15. #35
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    Oh, I have to ask, is there a flow pattern on the nose with a big flat meplat?

  16. #36
    Boolit Master BABore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44man View Post
    Thank you Babore.
    You are correct and that is what I will use next season, 50-50, water dropped with a shallow hollow point. All the boolit needs do is spread a little on impact, nothing drastic.
    How far do you want me to shoot what you are sending?

    Up to you, they're yours now unless USPS screws up. They still need to be sized, heat treated, and lubed. Besides, I only sent two of each. One for testing and one for a deer.

    I usually impact test them at point blank, typical deer range, and maximum deer range.

  17. #37
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    OK, one to sight and one for a deer. Will do!
    I no longer believe in test media after extensive testing last year on wet phone books and other stuff that showed large channels that deer did not exhibit.
    We shot everything up to the .577 Nitro Express. What a BLAST!

  18. #38
    Boolit Master BABore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44man View Post
    OK, one to sight and one for a deer. Will do!
    I no longer believe in test media after extensive testing last year on wet phone books and other stuff that showed large channels that deer did not exhibit.
    We shot everything up to the .577 Nitro Express. What a BLAST!
    Your thinking wrong here. Of course it's not deer flesh. Do you have a boolit that is known to do what you want in a deer? Use that one to establish a baseline in you test media first. Compare your unknown ones to that. Of course you can also pick up a few road killed deer, prop them up, stick a garden hose up their butt and fill em up a little, then have at it. My buddy and I are trying to find some goats to raise up over the summer. Keep the grass down in the shooting range while they fatten up. Come Fall they would become test media sausage. Something tells me I'm going to be hearing from Boerrancher about this idea.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BABore View Post
    Your thinking wrong here. Of course it's not deer flesh. Do you have a boolit that is known to do what you want in a deer? Use that one to establish a baseline in you test media first. Compare your unknown ones to that. Of course you can also pick up a few road killed deer, prop them up, stick a garden hose up their butt and fill em up a little, then have at it. My buddy and I are trying to find some goats to raise up over the summer. Keep the grass down in the shooting range while they fatten up. Come Fall they would become test media sausage. Something tells me I'm going to be hearing from Boerrancher about this idea.

    The Hard 45-70 boolit showed more damage then the .44 and .45 hard cast. The .475 was a little larger. But the media has a tendency to hold the channels shape. I remember the .475 went 40" too.
    I don't think a dead deer will show much because blood flow and systems are shut down, density is different and just putting water in amounts to shooting water jugs.
    Now the goats are the way to go and since the meat will be used, what difference is there in how they are killed? Death is death!
    My boolits blow a whole row of gallon water jugs sky high too.
    Now the .577 soft point blew craters as large as the books but penetration was poor. I have the results somewhere but can't find them. I will see if I can get the pictures from my friend too.
    Anyway, seeing the crater from the 45-70 WFN is what made me try them on deer instead of the WLN. Poor choice.
    The Hornady 300 gr HP is another story, it puts the hurt on deer. That is the bullet to copy. (For deer, not large animals.)
    Last edited by 44man; 03-10-2009 at 12:37 PM.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master BABore's Avatar
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    How about these then? They weigh 320 grains as they set. The LH boolit was sized from 0.461 to 0.452 which created a 0.100 top band in the process. It's 45 2.1's dual purpose Hammer design.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 460-325 GCHP.JPG.JPG  

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BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check