Gates Extreme Meplat Bullets

[44man]

James,

I'm still looking for the information concerning your tests of boolit noses hit by high pressure water streams. I'd like to see it in a post all by itself but I guess it would be ok to put it here.

There are enough of us on this forum who shoot cast all year at paper only to take one deer in the fall. I agree with the large meplat concept but would like to know what your water under pressure tests revealed. It would be interesting just to know how you put these tests together. Keep writin', I'm learnin'. Helice

What I figure for next season is to stay with my hard cast WLN and WFN boolits for the .44, .475 and .45 as they work to perfection. But the 45-70 will use a 50-50 WW and pure boolit with a hollow point, heat treated. I do not believe the meplat size itself will affect killing power as the boolit will upset. I just need to be careful that they do not expand too much or come apart.
The boolit picture Crass posted looks about perfect.
I want to slow the boolit in the deer, reduce the frontal pressure wave so lung tissue is closer to the boolit for a larger primary wound channel.
It is a funny thing to think about! Let us say you are shooting a very large animal with a very fast hardcast with a large meplat. Shoot it at a quartering to you angle and damage to lungs is poor and the slowing boolit does it's most damage in the guts.
Now shoot a quartering shot from the rear so the boolit slows before it hits the lungs and results will be much better because the lungs will subject to a more effective velocity.
Strange how us rednecks think!

[GLynn41]

Until this thread and a conversation with Veral -- I had never thought of too much speed having the kind of impact on bullit performance you experienced-- I wonder what the threshold is -- I had just assumed that like my 255 fired out of my 41/445 would just be way too much of the same good splash impact-now I am not so sure-- but it will be fun to try experiment and learn -- I knew -- at least I thought i did - what the 255 was going to do before I took game with it-- what you described in your last post -- was how i had to use the first gen of Nosler BTs in my .358 win -- at 2440broad side hits were not much - but angle it in and the bullet did much better- but mostly the last third before exit- anyway I quit using them because of that

[44man]

There is no perfect bullet/boolit for every range, velocity, size of game or shot angle. We can only reach the best balance point by making a good choice.
I learned a hard lesson with a Lone Eagle pistol in 7mm-08 with 139 gr bullets. I had killed several deer but the next was hit right behind the shoulder because she was moving when I shot. I found lung tissue on tree branches but little blood. I tracked her a long way and she never stopped moving. I lost blood and was following tracks until she went onto a trail full of tracks.
A lot of thinking concluded that the bullet did not open and lung damage was almost at the bullet exit. I should have used the 120 gr bullet in the pistol.
I did the same with my 7R but found the deer by walking circles. Not a drop of blood on the ground---wrong bullet. Too slow for bullet construction but the same bullet exploded in deer from the .280. Trying to fit this bullet into the right place only comes up with the 7X57. To try and use this bullet in everything from the pistol up a 7mm mag can give a guy a lot of grief.

[BD]

I'd sure like to continue the hunting related parts of this discussion down in the "Hunting with CBs" room.

BD

[Dixie Slugs]

It seems hard for some folks to understand Meplat Area vs Meplat Diameter. When I speak of Meplat Area for cast bullets....it covers both those with a non-expanded meplat....and those that are expanded.
There are vastly different ideas on cast game bullets indeed. Some want a cast bullst alloy that will rivet or expand....while others want a large meplat that does not expand.
It would be next to impossible to run a thread on cast bullets for hunting as there are different opinions as the just what is the best design. Besides that, some believe in bullet "Dwell" time in game and others say it does not exist as a factor.
I for one...if I want an expanding bullet, I will use jacketed bullets. No matter whether it is an expanding design cast bullet or a jacketed bullet....they are not consistant and their design is based on impact velocity....that's just the way they are designed. As for a hard heat treated hollowpoint design....most I have seen blew the nose off and did not expand even.
I prefer to depend on a non-expanding design with a proper amount of Meplat Area for tissue damage.
So...I don't think we could ever come to an agreement on the cast bullet design for game
Regards, James

[BOOM BOOM]

Hi,
1) i will remember your names.
2) i appreciate your work.
3) please do not stop posting.

[trent2]

Thanks to all for a great thread.
Now, is there any math wizs out there that could post a chart or formula from what we have all learned? Say one for casting hunting bullets that would be good for what ever intended purpose we have for said bullet at velocity, caliber, weight, meplate, etc.?
It sure would help to be able to summarize all this information into an easy to apply form of some sort.
Thanks again,
Trent

[Dixie Slugs]

I really do not think there is any handy math that answers all the questions that come up. Just a thought!.....as Velocity goes up, Meplat Area can come down....and give the same Tissue damage.
We have a formula that we use to give an idea of what is happening. Not perfect, but does seem to be able to factor one design against another:
Sectional Density X Meplat Area X Velocity = Factor.
I do warn against using Thornily though as it was designed exclusive for round nose designs.
Bottom line is what seems to work for you in actual hunting situations is best for you!
To venture onto Holy Ground! The Keith 429241 was never a good game bullet for us. We solid hit many deer/hogs, only to have to go get the dogs to trail them up. It's small meplat of .250" just did not give the tissue damage we wanted. If one really reads Elmer's writings. you will find thst he watchced the animal for a distance before it fell. That's fine in open country, but is bad in heavy cover. For general handgun hunting (not hand rifles), we want an extreme meplat bullet....no matter if it is .357" to .430" to 452"/.454. Over the years we have found that a .357"@180 grs, a .430"@ 265 grs and a .452"/453"@ 285 gr....gave the best of Sectional Density and Velocity. These are just our findings though.
I will say that we have been using cast bullet designs since 1956.....mainly in 44 Mags. But...we do not know beans about high velocity cast bullets in rifles indeed!
What I really like about this group...is we can kick things around wihout being flamed!
Regards, James
Oh yes....We have been using our .454" (285 gr) Extreme Meplat bullet in the black Hornady plastic sabot in our 50 cal ML'ing hammer guns!

[trent2]

Dixie,
Can you give me more info on your formula and how I might use it?
My cast hunting guns are 45 long colt in pistol and lever action and 45-70 in lever and double rifle.
Any help in determining best cast for deer and hog would be greatly appreciated.
I'm using a Ranch Dog mould now in 435 gr for the 45-70 lever. It may be over kill, but comforting to have if I should ever decide to hunt bigger game else where.

Thanks,

Trent

[GLynn41]

go to his web pages and read he has a formula there to play with

[trent2]

Excellent, thank you GLynn, I don't know how I missed it in checking out his site yesterday.
James, you're brilliant. I always believed in Taylor's formula, but knew it wasn't perfect.
I guess these gun writers these days just, well........write?
Now I have some way of comparing molds and different designs for my use.
Thanks and keep up the good work James.
Trent

[Dixie Slugs]

I have just posted a spec sheet on the EMC bullets....James

[Dannix]

I'm a young green-horn here, but any thoughts about "HyperCaving" a HP cast boolit?
New bullet: "hypercav" - New Test Results
As I posted there, I'm particularly interested in the results of a non-expanding HCHP.

Your thoughts?

That is why I decided to use 45 2.1's advise and use 50/50 WW-Pb alloy, along with a boolit that has a decent meplat. As cast it runs around 10 bhn. Good for alot of pistols and LV rifle rounds for thin skinned game. Good expansion. Want a bit more, then HP the same boolit. Water drop or oven HT the same alloy for 22 bhn and the solid version is a good penetrator that still shows some expansion at higher velocity. HP the harder boolit and you get a bunch more. If you need a hard boolit for the gun's likes, anneal the nose of either a solid or HP. One alloy and meplat design. It doesn't cover absolutely everything, but is the closest I've found so far.

[Dixie Slugs]

Let's see how I can best approach this answer? The poster is correct that water can not be compressed...indeed It should also be understood that as a jacketed bullet expands, the Meplat Area (area of the exposed expanded nose) inceases.
As the nose area increases it moves more water in tissue. The faster it expands...the larger diameter the first cavity is...but the faster it expands, the less penetration. Jacketed bullet are design the expand within a certain velocity envelope!
On the otherhand, an nonexpanding hard cast bullet depends on the designed mepalt for tissue damage.
There have been many attempts to explain what causes tissue damage indeed. It is really quite simple....
Tissue Daamge is a product of Meplat Area and Velocity.
Penetration is a product of Sectional Density and Velocity.
It is up to the bullet drsigner to undersand these factors and design the bullet to be the best balance in all the designs for the expected use/range/game of the bullet.
A closer range game bullet would have a different design that a longer range bullet! The problem arises that most bullet designers have not killed enough game to put the final touch on the design....James

[Dannix]

I just thought it was interesting how the 'ports' in the HP direct the water in the tissue for a greater wound channel. Thanks for your reply Dixie.

[Dixie Slugs]

Please understand that there are many gimmicks out there that are supposed to do wonders indeed. Over the many years I have been in this gun and ammo thing...I have seen hundreds!
The very basic meplat still is the most consistant! The various angles on a non-expanding bullet's nose should be understood first of all.
The water is tissue is forced away from a bullets nose on the exact angle that it hits the nose. Otherwords the angle of deflection equals in angle of inflection. The make a simple example.....if the angle of the nose is at 45 degrees from the axis of the bullet. The water would be forced way at the same 45 degrees from the angle.......or 90 degrees from the axis of the bullet. In theory, a non-expanding bullet with a nose angle of 45 degrees to a point (thus moving the water at 90 degrees) would give the most water movement.
While this may be true....we have found a flat meplat area creates a high presuure area and causes the most tissue damage.
Now....the uncerstanding of cast bullet designs for handgun has been going on since the 1950's. Many have been involved, but only as of late have we understood what was really causing tissue damage.....and have been able to control it with bullet design!...James

[bbailey7821]

Great Minds think alike! I've got a 360 grain from Mountain Molds, that I patterned after a Cast Performance Bullet that is a DEVASTATING wild pig killer!

[bbailey7821]

Furthermore, this monster will penetrate 36" of San Antonio Yellowpages, and keep on Trucking! I shoot it out of my Casull at 1400 fps.

[Dannix]

James, not sure if you can answer this question or not...

Have you ever played with adding a rebated boat-tail to a flat-nosed/large/extreme metaplat boolit design?

I thought of it just recently, but not sure where it falls in the dumb/brilliant/not-worth-the-extra-effort spectrum. If I'm not mistaken the trailing edge can make a significant difference in aero/hydrodynamics at low velocities, but not sure how much the trailing edge matters at supersonic speeds, in the context of a WFN.

[Dixie Slugs]

I have not played with a rebated base on the bullets I designed. There was a great deal of static over these large meplat designs indeed. Some even said they were not accurate and tended to tumble.....we have found no sign of that if the bullet left the barrel stable!
However, none of these large meplat bulets were designed for extreme range, but rather a balance of weight for penetration/meplat for tissue damage/velocity for ranges expectted for brush hunting (say 100 yards or so)
We continue to hunt with these bullets in handguns and brush rifles. They are just plain meat bullets!
Regards, James