Titan ReloadingWidenersMidSouth Shooters SupplyRotoMetals2
RepackboxInline FabricationPBcastcoReloading Everything
Lee Precision Load Data
Page 1 of 12 1234567891011 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 240

Thread: Gates Extreme Meplat Bullets

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    447

    Gates Extreme Meplat Bullets

    Friends...Over a long period of time I have been shooting hard cast bullets. Quite early I found that the Meplat Area was the most important factor in tissue damage.
    With this in mind, I set about designing and testing various Meplat Area/Bullet Weight designs. Theses were field tested over the years!
    Although I own a Federal License for ammo....I do not plan to get into selling component handgun bullets.
    So...I am attaching my Extreme Meplat Bullets in 357. 44. and 45 calibers. I only ask that the name stays the same if you have molds cut.
    Remember, these have been field tested indeed!
    Regards. James
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails bullets.jpg  
    Last edited by Dixie Slugs; 03-07-2009 at 09:11 PM.
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy

    Kuato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Miami, Florida
    Posts
    295
    nice! That 44 boolit would be perfect for me if it were plainbase. I have some jaktd Norma 44 Mag ammo that has that same profile..
    SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

  3. #3
    Boolit Master jameslovesjammie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Plentywood
    Posts
    850
    That 35 caliber is a thing of beauty! It looks great for revolvers, but have you tested it in lever actions?

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Bullshop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    6,172
    I am not sure without going to look but I think those are catalog items from NEI. No?
    They dont carry the name in the catalog.
    To get to name them you have to pay for the cherry too. Quite a bit more expensive to do that. All a them ogival wadcutters look like Verals design to me. He is the real Papa to all of um.
    BIC/BS

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    447
    If they are in ther NEI catalog, it's because they cut many of my original designs. As for Veral, we both have our ideas about designs.
    I put these here for those that are interested in them, not to argue who did what and when. I have been dealing with hard cast since 1956 and these deigns have been given freely to all cast bullet people....and they are not copies of Veral's bullets or NEI...James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Bullshop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    6,172
    Oh I see sorry, I didnt know you used the design before Veral.
    1956 wow I guess you were OW when OW wasnt cool. That was just after Elmer was tinkering with the Keith design. 44 mag cam out in 55 and Elmer never knew his design was already obsolete. Sorry bub call me rude if ya want but I just cant go for the please use my name thingy there cuz well I just think that honor belongs to someone else. If I buy the mold from NEI they dont ask me to.
    Maybe your a great boolit designer and been at it longer than anybody but I do think you overstreached yer measurin stick on that there request thingy.
    To me thier nuthin more than NEI ogival wadcutters made famous by Veral Smith.
    Think I will give credit where credit is due. Long live the WFN!
    BIC/BS
    OW=ogival wadcutter

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South Texas USA
    Posts
    624
    I don't want to get in the middle of a ####ing match here but the NEI designs look to me like they have a larger crimp groove which I like. The only thing is that all someone has to do is copy the design and call it a __________ style boolit. Just insert what ever name you like and it works, and they can sell it as theirs......Wes
    Last edited by waksupi; 03-08-2009 at 01:56 AM.
    The problem in America today is, there are to many fools making to many rules that don't apply to themselves. Now just wait until the new pres. takes office and see what happens!!!!!

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,397
    Must be cabin fever eh?





  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Bullshop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    6,172
    Quote Originally Posted by Nrut View Post
    Must be cabin fever eh?

    oops! yeah we had a big winter storm yesterday! he's been trapped inside for 2 days -

    Bull Shop Mom

  10. #10
    In Remembrance
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    SW Washington
    Posts
    1,118

    If that design

    had been around in 1955 I would have used it! Hard also.
    Sorry charlie

    Life is good

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    447
    I seem to have stired things up and that was not my intentions indeed. As for Elmer, I knew him well. There were various people playing around with designs at the same time, including Boser, Kilborn, and others, ut Elmer wrote the book.
    The real discovey that veral made is overlooked today....and that was when he painted the nose of the 429421 and shot it into water......finding only the meplat was washed off (and not the step Elmer had in the 429421). It was then that some realized the bubble caused by the meplat during penetration. That began the search for the best meplat that goes on today. There has been many that have designed some interesting bullets, but were working for the gun and ammo companies and were not allowed to do any wriiting, etc.
    I have no problems with anyone making modifications of any bullet that I have. There are just cherries out there that have been cut with one design. I just wanted the original specs to have my name to save confusion.
    I supposed it was a mistake posting these bullets, but I was asked to do so by some members of this forum. If it has caused confusion, the moderator is welcome to delete the thread.
    Regards, James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    1,457
    The real discovey that veral made is overlooked today....and that was when he painted the nose of the 429421 and shot it into water......finding only the meplat was washed off (and not the step Elmer had in the 429421). It was then that some realized the bubble caused by the meplat during penetration.
    James,

    This is new to me, but quite interesting. If I understand correctly, the only thing that really counts is the size of the meplat. You gain nothing from the butt ugly step on the Keith design, and might as well use a tapered or ogive design for better feeding and ballistic?
    Cap'n Morgan

  13. #13
    Banned

    44man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    22,705
    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie Slugs View Post
    I seem to have stired things up and that was not my intentions indeed. As for Elmer, I knew him well. There were various people playing around with designs at the same time, including Boser, Kilborn, and others, ut Elmer wrote the book.
    The real discovey that veral made is overlooked today....and that was when he painted the nose of the 429421 and shot it into water......finding only the meplat was washed off (and not the step Elmer had in the 429421). It was then that some realized the bubble caused by the meplat during penetration. That began the search for the best meplat that goes on today. There has been many that have designed some interesting bullets, but were working for the gun and ammo companies and were not allowed to do any wriiting, etc.
    I have no problems with anyone making modifications of any bullet that I have. There are just cherries out there that have been cut with one design. I just wanted the original specs to have my name to save confusion.
    I supposed it was a mistake posting these bullets, but I was asked to do so by some members of this forum. If it has caused confusion, the moderator is welcome to delete the thread.
    Regards, James
    No confusion at all on my end. I see your point. Today every SWC is called a Keith and every truncated cone is an LBT even through all kinds of changes that have nothing to do with the original design. I have no problem with a "Gates" boolit. I dislike the Keith. I have also said forever that the shoulder on a Keith is only good for paper.
    Been there, done that with stuff. I designed the first lighted bow sight and it was stolen by some guy with money that seen me using them at night owl shoots or when hunting. I worked out the method to tune a compound for broadheads. My mistake was to send it out trying to get published and at least get my name on the method. That also was stolen and now Easton is using it. When I talked to them they told me some guys in the shop figured it out yeah, sure! I still have the original copyrighted forms.
    I was always poor and found it takes big money to make money but it would be nice to see my name on something so if one of you puts a nipple on a boolit it doesn't matter to me what you call it.
    I designed the perfect WFN for the .475 that is so deadly accurate it is scary and it would be nice if it was called the JWM boolit. Even more scary is the fact that my boolit will fit a Freedom too!
    Sorry, no drawings! I just call it an LBT style and all of you will too, so it is mine to keep. This boolit has done 7/8" at 100 from my BFR and is the one I hit cans at 200 with but since WLN and WFN boolits are supposed to go unstable past 25 yd's I can't disclose the internal guidance system!
    Did I tell you I don't like the Keith?
    Why argue about a name? If it is different and works, someone should at least get credit for the change. A very, very small price and just a few clicks on a keyboard.
    Go for it James, I am going to die of old age and nobody will remember my name.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    447
    When we get to this point, it is the Meplat Area that counts. There has to be a balance. Too big a Meplat and there may be some problem as the bullet goes from super-sonic to sub-sonic. Veral speaks of that problem. My friend Todd Corder/ John Linebaugh Seminar also discussed that with me.
    Since we have been concerned with the meplat designs related to the water in tissue...it might be interesting to look into the Russian design, now copied by the USA Navy, on torpedo nose designs....all have a designed meplat to cause a ballistic bubble on the nose and reduced sidewall pressure drag.
    The Extreme Meplat designs at not as accurate at super-sonic to sub-sonic velocity as our Truncated Cone designs. However the Extreme Meplat designs do cause more tissue damage at the same impact velocity. We see it happen, but really can not calculate it.
    In 1973, we did some testing on various meplat designs using two chronos with Gel in between. When we went from a roundnose to a truncacted nose....everthing else the same...we got a lower reading on the second chrono.....energy deposit????. High speed photos also showed a larger cavity. Some writers, and bullet designers, were given the results....and we saw the first of the larger meplat designs. We, at the gun and ammo co's, were not allowed to publish the finding under our name as long as we worked for them.
    What was observed was that the Meplat Area was coming into play....but no way to calculate it....a good average was a 73% meplat. That worked fine but the cavity was also changed with velocity.
    As a general rule:
    Tissue Damage is a product of Meplat Area and Velocity.
    Penetration is a product of Sectional Densisty and Velocity
    This should be taken into consideration as you all develop cast bullet designs.
    Of course, this applies also to expanded meplats on jacketed bullets....but that's another story.
    Regards, James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  15. #15
    Banned

    44man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    22,705
    James, there is a problem when velocity gets too high. I have been testing WLN and WFN boolits on deer from my 45-70 BFR. Results have been extremely poor with several lost deer that were double lung shot. All of the deer recovered traveled three to four times farther then they do from slower boolits. When a necropsy is done, lungs are still pretty much intact.
    I went to an 80% meplat with no change at all in killing power. Results were so bad I used the Hornady bullet once to kill better.
    Once velocity goes over a certain level, the meplat causes a pressure wave that moves tissue out of the way causing a larger secondary wound channel instead of a large primary channel. The secondary channel then collapses after boolit passage leaving little tissue damage behind.
    Next season I will have softer noses and maybe a hollow point to get expansion but the most important thing I will be trying to do is slow the boolit in the deer for more "dwell" time. I will not slow muzzle velocity because I do not want to lose the accuracy.
    This effect can not be seen shooting into gel because the channel will stay fixed.
    Shooting a very large animal should show better results from a fast WFN because the boolit slows with penetration distance and resistance, causing more internal damage.
    Velocity can also be an enemy depending on the animal.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy Dixie Slugs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    447
    Moderator.....Please remove this thread and any other posts or threads I have answered or started....Thank you, James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  17. #17
    Cast Boolits Founder/B.O.B.

    45nut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Orygun
    Posts
    4,663
    pm sent.
    Boolits= as God laid it into the soil,,grand old Galena,the Silver Stream graciously hand poured into molds for our consumption.

    Bullets= Machine made utilizing Full Length Gas Checks as to provide projectiles for the masses.

    http://www.cafepress.com/castboolits

    castboolits@gmail.com

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Bullshop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    6,172
    James , my apologies to you Sir. If you have a very specific design mod that is origonal to your boolits and superior in some way to average run of the mill then I was off base and I apologise.
    But as someone mentioned I/we tend to look at all SWC as Keith and the same for OW designs as LBT's WFN or LFN designs.
    It seems there is much critisism for the Keith desigh and the sholder the design used that does not exist on an OW design.
    As I understand it the sholder was not included in the design to cut paper or flesh but was intended to contact the forward edg of the cylender to establish alignment of the boolit/cartridge in the cylender.
    Maybe Elmer was wrong about the cutting and maybe not. If you shoot both designs at paper you can clearly see that even though they are of the same caliber the SWC cuts a larger hole in paper than does the OW. Maybe it is different in tissue but on paper the differance in hole diameter is quite noticable.
    Personaly I use both designs and am pleased with both. Performance in game has been good for me with either as long as the shot was placed well.
    Thank you for posting your findings and your refined designs. I too didnt intend to start a fire on this but was just voicing one mans opinion. I have great respect for the work done by both Elmer and Veral but was unaware of unnamed men working behind the scenes on the same things.
    I to have a few of my own designs helped along by Dans design program at Mountain molds. They have all turned out well for both pistol and rifle. In my description of them at my web site they are simply called LBT style WFN'S because I really had little to do with it other than some minor details. The program unless otherwise specified automaticly sets the meplate at 70% when using the OW program. So I see that its perty well established at the 73% you mentioned.
    Anyway if I have ofended I do apologise and if anyone should leave this discussion it should be me. You have offered something to everyone but I have offered little more than argument. Sorry!
    BIC/BS

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy Hardcast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    491

    Please don't delete your posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie Slugs View Post
    Moderator.....Please remove this thread and any other posts or threads I have answered or started....Thank you, James
    James,

    I consider your experience and input quite valuable and removing it from the forum would be a big loss for us. I encourage you to reconsider your request. I bought Veral's book years ago and am also a believer in large meplats. The trouble is, cast boolits with huge meplats are notorious for losing accuracy at longer ranges, especially if not driven to maximum velocity. Some handgun hunters like to shoot at long distance targets, therefore they don't like the big meplat boolits. As for myself, I am not a long range handgun shooter and therefore, I like 'em. Thanks for sharing with us and I hope to read more of your posts.

    Neal

  20. #20
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    way to step up there daniel.
    the nose on the keith design was to help it align in the bbl throat of the colts he was shooting.
    the shoulder was to fill the cylinder throats.
    the rest like the in flight characteristics and game performance was a by product of the design to fit the gun.
    this is my take on wwhat i have read and spoken to others who have spoken to elmer about it.

Page 1 of 12 1234567891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check