Coyote hunting

[legendhunter]

I would like to no if anybody has hunted coyotes with a 223 and cast bullets. If so what bullet and powder would you use?

[fcvan]

Yes, and no. Yes I load cast boolits and practice for coyotes if needs be. First, cast requires proper projectile for the rate of twist of your rifle. You can reach good velocity, but can over rev the rate of twist the alloy can withstand. As an example, my dad had a 220 swift that easily ran above 4000fps. However, the 40gr projectile had a thin jacket. Sure it was accurate, but the projectile detonated on paper as evidenced by the cardboard 6" behind te paper, so dad had to purchase projecties specific to the 220 swift.

I built an AR15 with a 1 in 9" twist, I wanted a 1 in 10" twist. It shoots okay with the Lyman 225-415 which takes a gas check, about 3/4" at 100 yards on a good day. Load is about 14 gr of 4227 for 2250 fps. It is good for small game out to 100 yards, greats for holding off the hoards if needs be, but so is 22 long rifle but I can't reload those. Cast boolits are hell on tin cans, I hate tin cans. Maybe I need therapy.

Favorite mold is a 62gr plain based round nose, powder coated. Same 4227 load, same 2250 fps, same effect on tin cans. I have a 180 model Mini 14, with a 1 in 10" twist which performs flawlessly. The 1 in 9" is okay, the 1 in 7" only good for 50 yards, but that's okay, it's a pistol. It fires great with copper clad, I just don't load them. But now for my favorite cast and rifle combo . . .

7 years ago, I purchased an H&R Handi Rifle, which has 1 in 14" rate of twist, 24" barrel. Accuracy is fantastic with the 62gr rplain based round nose, using a long eye relief 4x scope. Velocity is 2450fps from the same 14 grain load of 4227. I'm pretty sure it would be good on coyote, Prarie dogs and yes, it's hell on tin cans. You see, fmj pokes a clean hole through both sides of the can without budging the can. The cast boolits deform on contact withe can and shreds the can. Picture a 1/2" strip of can peeled halfway around the can. It's kind of violent, and the can knows it's dead.

Cast is good, powder coating helps the round cycle without deformation, of course prevents leading, and the projectile expands at the lower velocity. I've loaded some of the 62gr with bullseye at 1000fps, for the single shot, or to use the AR15s or the Mini 14 as a single shot, think rabbit or grouse for the dinner pot. Good fun, great shooting, cast boolits work great for 223 Winchester. Frank

[quilbilly]

My experience with a mini-14 has been that the action wouldn't work properly to eject at MV's below 2450 which is faster than I like to push CB's. On the other hand, my bolt 223 with a 1/12 twist and an MV of 1950 has routinely with 56 gr CB's outshot all of my jacketed projectiles except Sierra Match projectiles at much higher velocities which I found astounding. At that 1950 velocity, it is more than a match for any coyote out to 200 yards without a great deal of pelt damage. Every rifle barrel has a personality but that particular barrel likes 6.5 gr. of Red Dot with CB's. It took me a long time of experimenting to find that out but yours might be different.

[fcvan]

Quilbilly, I hear you on the Mini 14, mine is the original 180 model, they changed the action for the 181 and beyond. As far as the action, it is gas operated which is not relative to fps. If your gas volume works, the fps doesn't matter. Heck you can get good velocity from Unique, but you won't have sustained gas volume. I'm saying 14 grain load is starting for 4227 and goes up from there. That 14 grain load gives you 500 rounds per pound, and I buy 8 pound kegs. I bought plenty before the current president, kind of like when I didn't buy components under the president before that. Funny how the cost of fuel, food, primers and powder goes up depending who's in the white house. Hmm

[versa-06]

Last coyote I popped was with a 454 casull rifle & there wasn't much left behind the shoulder, I shook it & it had a grinding sound. -06

[Three44s]

Last coyote I popped was with a 454 casull rifle & there wasn't much left behind the shoulder, I shook it & it had a grinding sound. -06

You mean that coyotes escapades "ground to a halt"?

Sorry, could not resist

Three44s

[versa-06]

Yup!! -06

[dverna]

I saw in another thread you are looking at buying cast .22 bullets.

There is no advantage to shooting cast in a .223 unless you want to save less than $.05 a bullet and then you must cast them yourself.

Cost of 4 cavity mold, handles and sizer - $150

Cost of "good" alloy $2/lb - using 55 gr bullets for 6000 bullets comes to $90
Cost of gas checks $30/k - 6k for $180
Lube/PC $10
Total cost $430/6000

Cost of Hornady 55 gr SP - $666
https://www.armorally.com/shop/horna...r-spire-point/

Savings of $236 on 6000 bullets - less than $.04/bullet

With cast you will "waste" or have "fun time" casting 6000 bullets - say 15-20 hours. You will waste or have more "fun" time sizing, lubing and putting on GCs (12-14 hr). 30 hours to save $236, and end up with a bullet that is not as accurate and running 70% of the velocity.

If you want less than 6000 bullets casting makes even less. When the cost of the mold and sizing die is amortized over fewer bullets the saving per bullet is even less.

I did not add in the extra cost to develop a cast load. You can get a 1.5 MOA load with jacketed bullets using less than 100 bullets. Cast loads take more "tweaking"...might need a different sizer die, and it is more challenging to find the sweet spot for powder type and velocity.

If you love casting go for it! If you want to kill coyotes, buy jacketed.

[quilbilly]

Don is , of course right, to an extent. The mold doesn't have to be that expensive. My Hornet and two of my .222's shoot beautifully with CB's from a Lee mold and sizer. Another one of my 222's prefers jacketed because it wants HOT loads. As said above, I prefer jacketed in my .223 Mini-14 but bolt rifle prefers cast from a NOE mold. I pay a dollar per pound for pure lead from a local recycler then do my own alloys from small amounts of Linotype I occasionally find in the bins (I don't use or make "hardcast" at all). I rarely cast more than 100 at a time and usually after casting for another caliber and the lead is already hot. The journey to find the right alloys, lube, and powder charge was certainly a challenge but a very satisfying one. Essentially, I enjoy casting and the scientific method of experimentation much like the alchemists of old. I guess that makes me a bit crazy. If you are looking for small game meat or coyote hides and ranges are under 200 yards, you may have to download your jacketed loads anyway.

[Texas by God]

I have killed several coyotes with a .22 LR over the years- shots of opportunity, mostly.
I prefer a .22-250 with jacketed bullets because it works much better at any range(and I don’t keep the pelts).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mnewcomb59]

I saw in another thread you are looking at buying cast .22 bullets.

There is no advantage to shooting cast in a .223 unless you want to save less than $.05 a bullet and then you must cast them yourself.

Cost of 4 cavity mold, handles and sizer - $150

Cost of "good" alloy $2/lb - using 55 gr bullets for 6000 bullets comes to $90
Cost of gas checks $30/k - 6k for $180
Lube/PC $10
Total cost $430/6000

Cost of Hornady 55 gr SP - $666
https://www.armorally.com/shop/horna...r-spire-point/

Savings of $236 on 6000 bullets - less than $.04/bullet

With cast you will "waste" or have "fun time" casting 6000 bullets - say 15-20 hours. You will waste or have more "fun" time sizing, lubing and putting on GCs (12-14 hr). 30 hours to save $236, and end up with a bullet that is not as accurate and running 70% of the velocity.

If you want less than 6000 bullets casting makes even less. When the cost of the mold and sizing die is amortized over fewer bullets the saving per bullet is even less.

I did not add in the extra cost to develop a cast load. You can get a 1.5 MOA load with jacketed bullets using less than 100 bullets. Cast loads take more "tweaking"...might need a different sizer die, and it is more challenging to find the sweet spot for powder type and velocity.

If you love casting go for it! If you want to kill coyotes, buy jacketed.

Don haunts the castboolits hunting forum, constantly discouraging people from trying to hunt with castboolits on the castboolits hunting forum, but this time I gotta say I am completely in agreement with him lol

There are much better calibers to kill coyotes with cast bullets. Don will probably say I haunt the castboolits forum encouraging people to kill stuff with the 357 magnum in a rifle. I will agree with him that it is a lot of fuss to "save a few bucks" but when you calculate it out the 357 will cost you about the same as loading for a 223 with lead bullets, but the 357 has no problem delivering 1000 foot pounds at 75 yards in either varmint grenade or hard cast fashion. Gas checked 158 grain HP with 18 grains of the right powder will deliver 1000 foot pounds in about 10", just like a full power varmint bullet 223 and it will blow up a groundhog or drop a coyote. 1000 foot pounds with a 158 grain hard cast can break both shoulders of an elk.

Going through all the fuss just to replicate a 22 Mag doesn't seem worth it. I don't even think cast is worth the effort in 30 cal. Sub-par accuracy, sub-par expansion, sub-par energy and velocity. If the juice is expecteted to be worth the squeeze, cast bullets should start at .357 or .358 and go up from there as needed. Zero chance you will catch me burning 16-20 grains of powder to get 300 foot pounds at the muzzle in a .223. Or for 30 cal, zero chance that I will waste 30 grains of powder to get 1000 foot pounds at the muzzle like 30-30 guys. The 357 is the most bang for your buck, and if I need more there is the 45 Colt rifle that gets 1700 foot pounds with 22 grains of powder.

[Three44s]

Why cast in the first place?

Because you can, you enjoy it, it promotes self-sufficiency.

If things get real nasty in this country, that self-sufficiency may just save your life or that of a loved one.

That's why.

Three44s

[dverna]

Why cast in the first place?

Because you can, you enjoy it, it promotes self-sufficiency.

If things get real nasty in this country, that self-sufficiency may just save your life or that of a loved one.

That's why.

Three44s

I have a number of excellent custom molds NIB for that very reason (self sufficiency) and hope I never need to use them. Two molds for .223, two for .308 and one for .30/30. (I got rid of my other rifle calibers as they did not do anything I cannot do with the .223 or .308.) Molds for pistol calibers are used because they make cheap bullets that are good enough at pistol ranges.

I have no need to turn a .223 into a .22 mag, or a .308 into a .30/30 with marginal accuracy...so cast rifle bullets area a waste of time and resources for my needs. If I shot a .38/55, .45/70 or similar, cast would work.

I am blessed to be able to afford to maintain an inventory 10k .223 and 3000 .308 jacketed bullets. If the SHTF, supply becomes iffy (another bug scare?), or the morons try to ban the sale of bullets, I will have a lifetime supply of jacketed bullets. If that happens, I will break out the rifle molds and put together passable ammunition. Until then, I prefer the benefits of top accuracy, longer range and better terminal ballistics of jacketed rifle bullets.

I am a lazy, cheap pragmatist. Saving a 5 cents a shot when performance matters is not worth my time when it comes to .22 cal CF's. The savings on .308 bullets are more per bullet but I shoot .308 far less. A $40-50 box of 100 of premium hunting bullets lasts me more than 5 years. Why fool around with cast to save that? I understand casting rifle bullets if it is a hobby someone enjoys, but it makes no practical sense.

I used to shoot 20k rounds of pistol bullets a year. Cast bullets make tons of sense doing that.

BTW, mnewcomb59's post echos my feelings. Until one gets to .35 cal bores, cast bullets are for niche applications like .25/20, .32/20, .32 S&W etc etc.

[Three44s]

Don,

I agree on the economics and time value of your arguement, however you are closer to my self-sufficiency argument than even I practice.

I do not own a .22 cast boolit mold but you own two of them. For 22 CF I fell into a set of jacketed bullet making dies. The smallest CB mold I own is 6mm and I bought it sort of on a lark.

In the case of SHTF, a shooter really should get ones loads figured out while the sound of gunfire is still common and "legal" because time to testing is going be non-existent and the noise an open invitation to getting your door busted down.

Three44s

[versa-06]

Three44s;- You are correct about many things based on times & the world (I Feel compelled by scripture). Many, Many things Scripturally speaking are on the horizon. I'm not going to get on an end times rant, but many things are materializing & many things are proving fact. I am closing the gap on every load that I think may be necessary cast or jacketed & bringing them to a close. I Pray All can see. -06

[dverna]

Being prepared is rarely a poor decision. I am blessed to have accepted Jesus. Before that, I was blessed to have had the resources to put up the means to deal as best I can, with what evil will come upon us.

As I said, I hope never to need those “means”. Unlike many “preppers”, I do not want to be proven right. And unlike many Christians, I am not hoping that Jesus returns in my lifetime. I will see Him soon enough. He will return on His timeline.

But until He returns, things will get very ugly. I want to protect those I love from evil and fight evil as best I can.

[dverna]

OP, I sincerely apologize for the thread drift. At least I offered good advice about the question of hunting coyotes.

Buy the Hornady bullets and be happy.

[M-Tecs]

I would like to no if anybody has hunted coyotes with a 223 and cast bullets. If so what bullet and powder would you use?

I've never killed a coyote with the 223 and cast. I have killed a lot of coyotes. If you are looking to recover to sell or tan furs expansion is very desirable. In the 70's I shot dozens of a snowmobile using 22LR using both rifles and handguns. The highspeed 22 hollow points just came out and proved to be very effective with a broadside shot. They were noticeable more effective that solid point 22LR. I made enough to purchase a Browning Sako L579 in 243 Win and a Leupold Vari X III 3.5x10. That did more fur damage than I wanted so I tried various FMJ's. That did limit fur damage but I lost too many, so FMJ's were costing me money via non recovered yotes.

The point is too hard of a bullet will be a problem. PC coating or paper patching should allow for higher velocities with bullets that still will expand.

[Barry54]

I would like to no if anybody has hunted coyotes with a 223 and cast bullets. If so what bullet and powder would you use?

If I ever felt the need for using cast in 223, I would go to the Berger bullets website and play around with their stability calculator using the 1 in 9 twist rate for your example. I would select a low velocity relative to what the 223 can accomplish with jacketed bullets. Then I would try to find the longest heaviest mold and see if it would be stable. That would be the boolet I would pick for cast in 223.

Hopefully I will never need to use cast in 223. The neck is short compared to 222 and others. I will never seat a gas check below the neck. So my preferred boolet would probably need the throat cut like a Weatherby with a lot of free bore to get it to chamber. I envision the boolet I would choose would be shaped like the 70 grain semi pointed jacketed bullet but it would weigh more because lead is more dense than copper. Heavier bullets naturally have lower velocity and this might be a compromise I could be satisfied with.

I suggested cost effective jacketed bullets in your other thread before you clarified you want to buy cast, and I apologize but I’ll recommend you buy jacketed again now after learning you want to buy cast.

I purchased 500 “polymer jacketed” lead bullets thinking I would save some time and they were 1/3 of the cost of jacketed bullets. I was planning to load them subsonic in a 300 Whisper for cheap fun.
Guess what? They wouldn’t chamber. So I had to resize ready to go bought bullets in order to use them. Plus they were ugly. Some had messed up bases. Sprue cut too soon. Some bases looked like they had been whacked with a pocket knife. The mark resembled the minute hand on a clock.

I plan on shooting them up, since I don’t wanna deal with the unknown coating if I melt them. Oh, and the coating was flaking off some too.

[Shopdog]

Poleaxed a Ghog late last week. 223,Shilen brrl Savage #16. RCBS 60G backed by 18g H4198. Light to med jam,.002" neck interference set with custom Lyman M die. Zero runout on fresh annealed RP cases.

Hog was facing away at near 100 yds,perfect center chest hit blew a baseball sized hole on exit. Pegged 100% on the gratification scale.

Can easily write 3 or 4 paragraphs on what it takes to get HV cast performance/accuracy with high intensity 22's.... but have to ask a question.

How much,or what experience do you have with bottlenecked high intensity cartridges and cast?

In anycase,good luck with your shooting.