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Thread: Next Generation Squad Weapon and optic exceed paratrooper expectations

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Next Generation Squad Weapon and optic exceed paratrooper expectations

    Next Generation Squad Weapon and optic exceed paratrooper expectations
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ne...a5b8882c&ei=22

    The first soldiers to field the Army's newest rifle and automatic rifle began live-fire training with the weapons this week, including demonstrations on how the new round can penetrate barriers to strike targets.

    Soldiers with the 1st Brigade, 506th Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division received a batch of XM7 rifles and XM250 automatic rifles and their XM157 fire controls in late March.

    The XM7 is the Army's replacement for the M4 while the XM250 will replace the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon. Both new weapons are chambered in 6.8mm, a larger and more powerful round than the legacy 5.56mm round used in the M4 and M249.

    The soldiers conducted classroom training last week and began firing the weapons in demonstrations on Monday, Col. Trevor Voelkel, 1st Brigade commander, told Army Times in a phone interview.
    Voelkel said he was impressed with the demonstration that showed the 6.8mm round piercing concrete blocks to strike paper targets on steel backdrops behind the barriers.

    101st Airborne first Army unit to field Next Generation Squad Weapons

    "Seeing the effects on the targets we had makes up for any concerns I had initially about the increased weight," the colonel said.

    Unloaded, the XM7 weighs 8.4 pounds, which is 3 pounds heavier than the M4. The XM250 weighs roughly 13 pounds unloaded, which is 2.7 pounds lighter than the M249.

    The 6.8mm round delivers energy on target that outperforms the 7.62mm round, with a flatter trajectory and a lethal range of at least 600m, more than twice that of 5.56mm rounds, Army officials said.

    Staff Sgt. Garrett Steele, a weapons squad leader, and Sgt. Marcus Colston, bravo team leader, told Army Times that before they fired the weapon they were worried that the new round would add recoil, which might make it hard to get back on target.

    "The recoil, honestly, was very negligible even with the larger round," Colston said. "The weight of the weapon was pretty negligible."

    Steele agreed and said the XM7 was very accurate, both with iron sights and the new fire control. The weapons team leader said the group of soldiers with 1st Brigade that he trained with were able to zero their weapons and get tight groupings after shooting 10 rounds or fewer.

    "There wasn't anybody who had any issues getting groupings or zeroing quickly," Steele said.

    The XM157 has a host of features not available in the standard rifle optics such as the Close Combat Optic and Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight that have been used by soldiers for years.

    The new fire control has a built-in infrared aiming laser, bullet drop compensator and ballistics calculator that can receive data for any weapons system in the Army's inventory and add new data for future weapons.

    The fire control will adjust the aiming point for the shooter based on distance and the ballistics of the round. It allows shooters to use eight times magnification to zoom in on a target, compared to the four times magnification on current standard optics.

    Both sergeants said the optic was easy and quick to use. And the features were all applicable.

    "There's no fluff on the optic," Colston said. "Everything that we can do with that, in my experience, the things we do as infantrymen, every single one of those features is going to be useful at a certain time."

    Voelkel echoed his soldiers' comments on the fire control, comparing it to the current optics.

    "It's kind of like going from my Nokia flip phone to an iPhone," he said.

    The rangefinder and IR laser will allow soldiers to mark target reference points and laser targets for call for fire in the field with no additional equipment, the colonel said.

    "I think that's going to open up a whole new world of capabilities," Voelkel said.

    The brigade will receive 1,500 XM7s and 200 XM150s, all with their own optics, according to Program Executive Office-Soldier. The brigade is expected to be fully fielded with the new weapons by September.

    The brigade is scheduled for their pre-deployment Joint Readiness Training Center rotation in March 2025, Voelkel said. The unit has a large-scale field training exercise scheduled for this fall with the entire 101st Airborne Division.

    Those events will help the unit see the performance of a brigade fully equipped with the new small arms and optics in both live fires and simulated, force-on-force training, the colonel said.

    During force-on-force exercises, soldiers armed with the weapons will have greater ranges and the ability to penetrate barriers when in a close fight. The laser shooting systems used for force-on-force can be adjusted to accommodate the 6.8mm ballistics so commanders can get a sample of its performance.

    "It's going to allow us to engage the enemy earlier than we would have," Garrett said. "If we see an enemy far out, we can get better eyes on with the optic."

    In 2017, the 101st Airborne Division was also the first unit to field the replacement for the legacy M9 handgun with the Modular Handgun System, which includes the M17 and M18 handguns.

    Following that fielding with the next generation weapons gives the division a chance to give the Army feedback on a weapon that many soldiers may carry for decades to come.

    "I think there's a lot of pride and a feeling of weighty responsibility," Voelkel said.

    The $4.7 billion rifle and automatic rifle weapons contract with firearms manufacturer Sig Sauer and the $2.7 billion contract with Sheltered Wings, a subsidiary of Vortex Optics, for the XM157, are the most significant changes to Army individual weapons since the M16 was fielded in the 1960s.

    The XM7 is a piston-driven, modular, select-fire, magazine-fed, suppressed rifle.

    The XM250 is a belt-fed, air-cooled, lightweight, gas-operated, select-fire, suppressed light machine gun that fires from the open-bolt position.

    The Army plans to field the new weapons to close combat forces such as infantry, special operations, scouts, combat engineers, forward observers and combat medics by fiscal year 2033.

    The legacy M4 and M249 will see continued use for decades to come for the rest of the Army.

    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    On the one hand, as obvious as it's been that Sig has someone performing "oral arguments" for key members of Pentagon staff, this seems potentially as honest as "troops taking part in the trial unanimously preferred the trapdoor to the rolling block".

    On the other hand, if you're gonna do something like this, doing it when the war experiences are still fresh is good practice.

    On the third hand (?) with as much work as drones are doing in Ukraine, one has to start pondering how much employment an enhanced infantry rifle will have going forward, and how much money should be sunk into one. Bets seem to be hedged by the stating of "the 5.56 platforms will be around for a long time", which will at least allow the new system to show its weaknesses. The AK doesn't seem to be going anywhere either. Both are here, both work, and both have an over 60 year established logistical train to displace. Until they come up with something as profound as smokeless displacing black powder, good luck with that.

    Fourth hand(??): Interesting that we spent WWI and WWII discovering that 2,000 yard sights and stable 2,000 yard trajectories weren't being used and that combat was predominantly a 400 yard and less game. . . and now we're back to a heavy battle rifle with a full power cartridge that interchanges into the squad M.G. I hope they bring back water cooling while they're at it.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

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    Boolit Master


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    The 6.8mm round delivers energy on target that outperforms the 7.62mm round,

    I have not studied the 6.8 SPC round but I don't think this is the case. Is there someone here better versed than I on this subject? Please chime in.
    Take care,
    Rick

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    Boolit Master
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    40% heavier and heavier ammo, but it sounds fun!
    Where can I buy one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    40% heavier and heavier ammo, but it sounds fun!
    Where can I buy one?
    Better be prepared to write a BIG check. I can't imagine the price of the optic alone.

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    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickinTN View Post
    The 6.8mm round delivers energy on target that outperforms the 7.62mm round,

    I have not studied the 6.8 SPC round but I don't think this is the case. Is there someone here better versed than I on this subject? Please chime in.
    Take care,
    Rick
    Are they using the SPC or the new SIG Fury? The SPC isn't even close to a 7.62x51.

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    Boolit Master
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    More hype, in my opinion. In 1965, they issued us the Matel 16 (aka M16), and the hype was, to wit: "The bullet goes so fast, no sight change is needed; the powder burns so clean, cleaning is not needed, the bullet explodes on impact and is more powerful than the rounds from the M14."

    At our classroom range orientation before firing the Matel, I asked the Tech Sergeant instructor the weight of the tiny projectile? He said, "That is classified." I asked about the muzzle velocity and same answer. Whatever. I told him the tiny 5.56mm looked like my .222 chuck gun back home in PA. He did not comment. The rest is history! They are reissuing the M14 for effective range hits in the desert terrain. I do not own a .223/5.56 Matel.

    Be well.

    Adam

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    Boolit Master elmacgyver0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    More hype, in my opinion. In 1965, they issued us the Matel 16 (aka M16), and the hype was, to wit: "The bullet goes so fast, no sight change is needed; the powder burns so clean, cleaning is not needed, the bullet explodes on impact and is more powerful than the rounds from the M14."

    At our classroom range orientation before firing the Matel, I asked the Tech Sergeant instructor the weight of the tiny projectile? He said, "That is classified." I asked about the muzzle velocity and same answer. Whatever. I told him the tiny 5.56mm looked like my .222 chuck gun back home in PA. He did not comment. The rest is history! They are reissuing the M14 for effective range hits in the desert terrain. I do not own a .223/5.56 Matel.

    Be well.

    Adam
    Why not? They are a lot of fun for plinking and varmints.

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    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmacgyver0 View Post
    Why not? They are a lot of fun for plinking and varmints.
    elm,
    Plinking is a fun way to spend a summer afternoon, but in the real world, some of us prefer a REAL gun! I think many folks in love with the 5.56MM do not realize it is NOT legal for big game in many states. I had three wonderful issued M-14s in the past. I refuse to consider a plastic Matel toy being thought to be anything more than a kid's plinking arm!

    Be well.

    Adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by RickinTN View Post
    The 6.8mm round delivers energy on target that outperforms the 7.62mm round,

    I have not studied the 6.8 SPC round but I don't think this is the case. Is there someone here better versed than I on this subject? Please chime in.
    Take care,
    Rick
    It's not the 6.8 SPC. The new round is the 6.8x51 loaded to 80K PSI on a two-piece case. Civilian name is the .277 Fury. It's a hybrid two-piece 308 case necked downloaded to higher pressures.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-21-2024 at 03:49 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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    Boolit Master elmacgyver0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    elm,
    Plinking is a fun way to spend a summer afternoon, but in the real world, some of us prefer a REAL gun! I think many folks in love with the 5.56MM do not realize it is NOT legal for big game in many states. I had three wonderful issued M-14s in the past. I refuse to consider a plastic Matel toy being thought to be anything more than a kid's plinking arm!

    Be well.

    Adam
    Not everything is hunting big game. I have AR15s that I have never shot, I just enjoy milling out the receivers and putting them together, and even the .308 version AR I built is not legal to hunt big game in my state. I have a few REAL guns, but I also enjoy .22 LR and PCP pellet guns. One of my favorites is my M1 Garand, I would hope that qualifies for a REAL gun.
    There are not many guns that I don't like. I guess you could classify me as a "Gun Nut."
    I do understand your dislike for the M16, I was never in the service, but if I were I might feel the same way about them.
    If my life were to depend upon it, I would rather have something chambered in a more potent round then a varmint rifle.
    I really don't consider any firearm a kid's toy, even my .25 caliber PCP will punch a hole in a 1-inch board.

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    Boolit Master

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    The below quote from the text is really an eye-opener:

    “The new fire control has a built-in infrared aiming laser, bullet drop compensator and ballistics calculator that can receive data for any weapons system in the Army's inventory and add new data for future weapons.”
    “The fire control will adjust the aiming point for the shooter based on distance and the ballistics of the round. It allows shooters to use eight times magnification to zoom in on a target, compared to the four times magnification on current standard optics.”

    So not only with the fire control system take the variables out of ‘distance to target’ shots, it can send and receive data from other systems for target acquisition and supporting fire. That’s pretty advanced.
    No wonder it costs so much.

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    Boolit Master elmacgyver0's Avatar
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    Today's technology is mind boggling; I just viewed a couple videos on humanoid robots, one can carry on a conversation with a person like it was a real person, others can run, jump, do flips and other feats beyond most humans. It certainly is a brave new world.
    Some of these robots (humanoid) are already on the market starting at 250 thousand dollars.
    My question is once robots completely take over the work force, who will be able to buy the products they make?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmi48219 View Post
    The below quote from the text is really an eye-opener:

    “The new fire control has a built-in infrared aiming laser, bullet drop compensator and ballistics calculator that can receive data for any weapons system in the Army's inventory and add new data for future weapons.”
    “The fire control will adjust the aiming point for the shooter based on distance and the ballistics of the round. It allows shooters to use eight times magnification to zoom in on a target, compared to the four times magnification on current standard optics.”

    So not only with the fire control system take the variables out of ‘distance to target’ shots, it can send and receive data from other systems for target acquisition and supporting fire. That’s pretty advanced.
    No wonder it costs so much.

    Vortex Optics XM157 Overview: The Next Generation Squad Weapon-Fire Control (NGSW-FC)
    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/v...rol-nsgw-fc-2/
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmacgyver0 View Post
    Not everything is hunting big game. I have AR15s that I have never shot, I just enjoy milling out the receivers and putting them together, and even the .308 version AR I built is not legal to hunt big game in my state. I have a few REAL guns, but I also enjoy .22 LR and PCP pellet guns. One of my favorites is my M1 Garand, I would hope that qualifies for a REAL gun.
    There are not many guns that I don't like. I guess you could classify me as a "Gun Nut."
    I do understand your dislike for the M16, I was never in the service, but if I were I might feel the same way about them.
    If my life were to depend upon it, I would rather have something chambered in a more potent round then a varmint rifle.
    I really don't consider any firearm a kid's toy, even my .25 caliber PCP will punch a hole in a 1-inch board.
    ely,

    Thanks for the reply. No, not everything is a big game gun, BUT, why send a "Boy" to do a man's job? The M14 was a far better gun back then and now. A Matel is a better gun for folks that don't know better. LOL.

    A .308 IS LEGAL for Big Game in your state. A .223 is NOT! The calibers are the determining factor and a chuck round (.223/5.56mm) was anemic from the get go. Even if the ballistics in 1965 were "classified." A few rolls of caps should have been included with the Matel 16.

    Yes, I have several Garands and used a favorite to shoot my way onto my state high power rifle team twice to go to Camp Perry. The .30-06 is a real round like the .308.

    Be well.

    Adam
    Last edited by Adam Helmer; 04-21-2024 at 04:48 PM.

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    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmi48219 View Post
    The below quote from the text is really an eye-opener:

    “The new fire control has a built-in infrared aiming laser, bullet drop compensator and ballistics calculator that can receive data for any weapons system in the Army's inventory and add new data for future weapons.”
    “The fire control will adjust the aiming point for the shooter based on distance and the ballistics of the round. It allows shooters to use eight times magnification to zoom in on a target, compared to the four times magnification on current standard optics.”

    So not only with the fire control system take the variables out of ‘distance to target’ shots, it can send and receive data from other systems for target acquisition and supporting fire. That’s pretty advanced.
    No wonder it costs so much.
    How exciting. They have managed to do what Burris has been doing for the last 10 years or so with their Eliminator scope.

    That new round is going to be incredibly expensive to manufacture compared to 5.56 ammo. All in all a big win for the military industrial complex! And with the future of warfare clearly being inexpensive drone swarms, it may be all for nothing anyway.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Helmer View Post
    ely,

    Thanks for the reply. No, not everything is a big game gun, BUT, why send a "Boy" to do a man's job? The M14 was a far better gun back then and now. A Matel is a better gun for folks that don't know better. LOL.

    A .308 IS LEGAL for Big Game in your state. A .223 is NOT! The calibers are the determining factor and a chuck round (.223/5.56mm) was anemic from the get go. Even if the ballistics in 1965 were "classified." A few rolls of caps should have been included with the Matel 16.

    Yes, I have several Garands and used a favorite to shoot my way onto my state high power rifle team twice to go to Camp Perry. The .30-06 is a real round like the .308.

    Be well.

    Adam
    Yup. The M1 is a good plinker for punching holes in paper at the target range. But that has little to nothing to do with military weapons.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    Sounds like the real 'power' in the rifle is in the sighting system. I'd bet it would be cheaper to just buy that for the current rifles.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by perotter View Post
    Sounds like the real 'power' in the rifle is in the sighting system. I'd bet it would be cheaper to just buy that for the current rifles.
    Good point, of course the military will cry that the system will be wasted if paired to the 5.56 cartridge. Congress will agree and add another 10% to the Vortex contract, like they do with all military budgets.

    The initial contract to Vortex is $2.7 BILLION for 250,000 units. That works out to $10,800.00 EACH, for the sighting system alone. I wonder how much each new XM-7 rifle costs.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bmi48219 View Post
    Good point, of course the military will cry that the system will be wasted if paired to the 5.56 cartridge. Congress will agree and add another 10% to the Vortex contract, like they do with all military budgets.

    The initial contract to Vortex is $2.7 BILLION for 250,000 units. That works out to $10,800.00 EACH, for the sighting system alone. I wonder how much each new XM-7 rifle costs.
    I have been an observer and outspoken about wasteful military spending for many decades; but there is also "More To It" than the simple statement of the cost working out to $10,800.00 each. The budgetary cost includes development, testing, modifications, small quantity delivery across the USofA/World, spare parts, training for warehouse persons and Armorers, and..... This and several other issues makes the extrapolation per unit flawed, which is why often one will see reduced costs on future production lots.

    My biggest concern is the added impact of ordering, Storage, Transportation, delivery to localized storage, delivery to the correct service member on the ground with the new weapons systems (these are all Logistics related); particularly a "NEW CALIBER" round using a new Cartridge that is predominantly Plastic that is lab and garrison tested, but not really field tested yet (Research the fiasco's around the Fielding af the M-16, then the M-16A1, and ultimately most problems corrected with the M16-A2). Couple this with introducing a new Round that is NOT NATO STANDARD; which will play heck with logistics in the European, African, and Asian Theaters. There is an old but true military saying - amateurs talk tactics, but professionals talk Logistics.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

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