New Brass Sizing ?

[15meter]

What is this new brass thing that is being bandied about?

[gnappi]

I size new also. I don't hand prime so it has to go in the station, may as well size too.

[wilecoyote]

for what I can, uniformity is the keyword. since the start_
sizing new it's a must, in my book_

[centershot]

All new brass gets a trip through the sizing die, 'cuz you never know what you have until it's been processed.

[hemmjo]

This is an interesting thread I stumbled onto while looking for info on sizing. Seems to be a lot of collective knowledge here. I think my comments, although long, do relate to resizing new brass.

I began to reload, 50+ years ago, before I got a wife, kids, and moved into a place with no good place to load. Shortly before I stopped reloading, I bought a used Remington XP-100 along with with dies and a two boxes of cartridges. Half of one box was fired. I shot the rounds that came with it and was not impressed with the performance. Bought 2 more boxes. I shot one box and part of the other. These new rounds were a little better, but I was still not impressed. I have no idea the history of the gun OR if the rounds that came with it were new or reloaded. Then life got in the way and I cleaned up guns and packed everything away. Have only used my 22 rifle and a 22-250 as needed for varmints around the place.

Now kids are grown, I have a workshop, I am retired and my son has expressed interest in shooting where there was none before. I have set up a work space and getting the gear back out to restart the hobby. Examining the fired 221 Fireball cases, from long ago, they do not look right to me. Some of the rounds that came with gun the primers are backed out, some pierced, others some seem to be flattened pretty good. From my reading, backed out or pierced primers seem to indicate too much head space, too much pressure OR not enough pressure to stretch the case back against the bolt.

In search of answers, I bought an L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gauge for each cartridge I shoot. 221 Fireball, 22-250 and 8mm Mauser. The Wilson Gauges tell me that fired cases for the 221 are shorter than minimum with the primers backed out to near the maximum. The few unfired 221 rounds I have are also below minimum.

All 200 of the fired 22-250 cases I have are from my gun and are about 0.002 above maximum size. I have a few unfired that are correct.

I have only 16 Mauser cases in the original Remington “Kleanbore” Box when I inherited the gun. Those fired cases protrude about 0. 245 above Maximum on the gauge.

I purchased 100 new cases for the 221 and the 8mm. Those new cases fit the gauges perfectly.

For me, it is obvious the chamber on the Mauser is large. I will NOT be resizing those to fit fully into the gauge as that will greatly reduce case life.

I am thinking that the 221 rounds I got with the gun were reloads. I think they were sized a bit too small, resulting in the pushed out primers. Some not loaded hot enough to push the case back against the bolt face, some too hot, squishing the primers and hopefully the reason the gun is so inaccurate.

To wrap this up, if you are resizing anything, new unfired or old range brass, and not measuring it in some way, you are just guessing.

Some photos on the gauges and various brass measurements.

1) 3 fired cases in their gauges. The 221 with pushed out, pierced primer. The primer IS at the correct length if only the head of the case was back there with it!!

2) 2 new unfired cases

3) 221 unfired is about 0.002 too short

[georgerkahn]

hemmjo-- You reinforce my challenges (actually, "extreme disappointment" may be a better expression) after I purchased the XP100 in .221 Fireball I had longed for, for a good many years! I tried Lapua brass (ALL I now use!) and premium factory bullets using my Redding Boss press. The "culprit" for my loading was from this, as well as most other of my presses I tried, being severe run-out. This alone caused me to order a Forster Co-Ax, and being they were at the time on back-order "forever" -- I bought a MEC Marksman. With the Marksman press -- much to my most pleasant surprise -- pretty much ANY run-out disappeared -- and my groups on target MORE than significantly shrunk!
I first size any/all brass, and then trim; I am a "L E Wilson user" -- having same gauges as you have, and, their case length trimmer. Properly sized brass of uniform, exact correct length is one of the major keys to success I've experienced. But, I will add that -- at least in my case -- using same Redding dies and all else the same -- eliminating run-out was necessary for optimal results.
geo

[Rapier]

What I do is what I learned the hard way, to do, prepare every component, every time, for every reloading session, exactly the same.

When you run low on ammo and need more ammo, you are going to not try to defend yourself with that "Junk" ammo, right? Wait until it happens to you, and you will pray that crap you loaded goes bang. Should you live through it, You will, absolutely, guarantee it will never happen again. That is the hard way.

[dtknowles]

This is an interesting thread I stumbled onto while looking for info on sizing. Seems to be a lot of collective knowledge here. I think my comments, although long, do relate to resizing new brass.........

I have only 16 Mauser cases in the original Remington “Kleanbore” Box when I inherited the gun. Those fired cases protrude about 0. 245 above Maximum on the gauge........

I purchased 100 new cases for the 221 and the 8mm. Those new cases fit the gauges perfectly.........

For me, it is obvious the chamber on the Mauser is large. I will NOT be resizing those to fit fully into the gauge as that will greatly reduce case life..........

I don't think your Mauser is an 8x57 (8mm Mauser) anymore, I think it has been modified to be a 8mm -06, this was a not so uncommon modification so that it could be reloaded with much cheaper (at the time) surplus 30-06 brass that was just necked up to 8mm.

Tim

[Thin Man]

I size all my new brass,, both rifle and handgun alike. While doing this I have been surprised at the numbers of cases that were so irregular they had little to no chance to "fit & function" in any chamber. This little bit of extra work pays for itself many times over.

[dtknowles]

You have to wonder what the factories do, is new brass pulled from the factory at a different place in the process than new brass that the factory loads. Why is not factory new brass not the same as factory ready to be primed brass. If you buy primed brass, I assume that you don't resize it but then, with this crowd maybe many would.

[M-Tecs]

You have to wonder what the factories do, is new brass pulled from the factory at a different place in the process than new brass that the factory loads. Why is not factory new brass not the same as factory ready to be primed brass. If you buy primed brass, I assume that you don't resize it but then, with this crowd maybe many would.

Without seeing everyone's manufacturing process it's hard to make a blanket statement but on the one that I have seen the brass is produced in one area and yes it's the same brass for reloaders and factory loads. Once the brass is manufactured it is transferred to a separated loading area on high-speed inline loading machines that the ability to deal with issues like not enough neck tension. Their brass tends not to have the same level of shipping damage like the brass most reloader deal with.

[hemmjo]

I don't think your Mauser is an 8x57 (8mm Mauser) anymore, I think it has been modified to be a 8mm -06, this was a not so uncommon modification so that it could be reloaded with much cheaper (at the time) surplus 30-06 brass that was just necked up to 8mm.
Tim

Interesting thought. That did get me thinking. I inherited this rifle from my grandpa near 50 years ago. He was in the merchant marines during WWII and brought it home with him. I wish I knew more of the history of it. He was an avid hunter, fisherman, sportsman etc. But as far as I know he was never a reloader.

I did some measurements to check your thought. I am pretty sure the chamber is just a bit too large. Attached is a drawing of some differences between the new, Hornady 8 x 57 brass, and one that came with the gun in a box of unfired Remington Kleanbore 8mm Mauser. I also measured some once fired brass from some surplus ammo got.

Both fired cases are near identical, within 0.001 and 0.002 of each other.

The surplus label



The drawing



Making progress but still have not loaded any for it yet.

[Texas by God]

That surplus ammunition is Yugoslav. I shot a bunch of it when it was $5/15 on stripper clips.


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[Mike Kerr]

I size all new brass because it is not always the same depending on many variables. I have learned the hard way that a one time trip thru your sizing process is well worth the effort. Interior neck sizes vary quite a bit on some makers brass. It is just a silly little problem that we can avoid.

[dtknowles]

Interesting thought. That did get me thinking. I inherited this rifle from my grandpa near 50 years ago. He was in the merchant marines during WWII and brought it home with him. I wish I knew more of the history of it. He was an avid hunter, fisherman, sportsman etc. But as far as I know he was never a reloader.

I did some measurements to check your thought. I am pretty sure the chamber is just a bit too large. Attached is a drawing of some differences between the new, Hornady 8 x 57 brass, and one that came with the gun in a box of unfired Remington Kleanbore 8mm Mauser. I also measured some once fired brass from some surplus ammo got.

Both fired cases are near identical, within 0.001 and 0.002 of each other.

The surplus label



The drawing



Making progress but still have not loaded any for it yet.

Are you convinced the fired brass was fired in that gun? When you checked the fired brass in the Wilson gage, I am guessing that the case did not go into the gage far enough for the shoulder to contact and it hung up on the oversized body. You are right probably not a 8mm -06. Fired 8 x 57 in an 8-06 would not look like that, it would have no or very little neck.

Tim

[hemmjo]

Are you convinced the fired brass was fired in that gun? When you checked the fired brass in the Wilson gage, I am guessing that the case did not go into the gage far enough for the shoulder to contact and it hung up on the oversized body. You are right probably not a 8mm -06. Fired 8 x 57 in an 8-06 would not look like that, it would have no or very little neck.

Tim

Yep, 100% positive. I first saw, and fired it when I was 13-14. That would have been 1962 or 63. Grandpa shot a couple and I shot 3 into a big maple tree on my aunt's farm woods. We lost some of the brass in the woods. When I got the gun, that box of Remington Kleanbore, missing a few cases, with 10-12 unfired rounds was in the case. I bought the box of Yugoslav and fired that myself.

Just now I measured the case and gage The head is sticking out 0.209, the neck is still 0.210 inside the gage.

I have not loaded any for this yet. I am still trying to learn the fine points of this art. I know that I did some things wrong years ago when I first started. Hopefully I am getting a bit smarter now.

I am wondering if I should not try to fully resize these cases. Only size the neck so the bullets don't fall out? Won't resizing this much every time. wear the brass out really quickly?