Buying Lyman M dies over NOE expanders...am I missing out?

[THE_ANTIDOTE]

I like the simplicity and convenience of having one die for each of my calibers, but I have wondered if the NOE expanders offer greater versatility/use? Will the NOE system produce better neck/bullet tension vs the M dies or would it not be enough to make much of a difference. For example, value wise, it is slightly better for me to buy an M die for my 45-70/90 than to buy a separate LEE die and NOE expanders/spacer to cover bullets from .458-.462. Anybody have experience with both and would you choose one over the other. Also, NOE is hit or miss on availability and it could be months wait for just one expander if they are sold out which is something for consideration. Lyman can be had going down the list of online vendors.

[Taterhead]

For me the primary benefit of the NOE expander system is that they typically have more expander options for each respective nominal diameter. My experience with Lyman M dies is that they are typically of a shank diameter suitable for setting the neck ID for jacketed bullets whereas NOE often offers plus sized diameters for the typical extra diameter of cast bullets. For sake of clarity, I'm referring to the diameters of the expander shank that sets the ID of the neck. I'm not describing the M step that opens the case mouth.

[Wheelguns 1961]

I use NOE expanders in all of the calibers that I load for. I used to use M dies until I measured my 45 colt M die and the expander only measured .448”. I can see using the Lyman dies if you only load for one caliber, but, if you load for multiple calibers, the NOE expanders are more cost efficient while having a better selection.

[Bazoo]

I use both, and I also use RCBS expanders that come with their new dies which are shaped like the M die. The NOE M die plugs are great, but they do have one small issue, they aren't long enough for some applications.

Their 30 caliber plugs do not give the length needed to fully expand the neck on a 30-30 case. Since I size to .310, the Lyman M die is my choice there as it's the size I want, and of sufficient length.

You can have 1 M die per caliber simply by purchasing a Lee universal body for each of the expanders you use. Once it's set, you can switch between .457 and .458 by changing plugs without losing your adjustment.

The main problem with Lyman M dies is the lack of desirable sizes.

I like the RCBS version better than the others for my pistol calibers, and thankfully, for 357 Magnum and 44 Magnum, they suit my desires size wise.

[SoonerEd]

For me the primary benefit of the NOE expander system is that they typically have more expander options for each respective nominal diameter. My experience with Lyman M dies is that they are typically of a shank diameter suitable for setting the neck ID for jacketed bullets whereas NOE often offers plus sized diameters for the typical extra diameter of cast bullets. For sake of clarity, I'm referring to the diameters of the expander shank that sets the ID of the neck. I'm not describing the M step that opens the case mouth.

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[THE_ANTIDOTE]

All valid points and exactly the type of feedback I was hoping for. I imagined the NOE expanders would be better suited to larger diameter bullets.

[RickinTN]

For me the primary benefit of the NOE expander system is that they typically have more expander options for each respective nominal diameter. My experience with Lyman M dies is that they are typically of a shank diameter suitable for setting the neck ID for jacketed bullets whereas NOE often offers plus sized diameters for the typical extra diameter of cast bullets. For sake of clarity, I'm referring to the diameters of the expander shank that sets the ID of the neck. I'm not describing the M step that opens the case mouth.

I have had exactly the opposite from Lyman M-dies. They expand the inside of the neck suitable for cast bullets for me. For most cartridges there is no need to expand the neck for jacketed bullets. I do use a few of the RCBS expander dies as well. I started buying these because I could use several expander buttons in one body. I soon realized I don't like changing the buttons for each cartridge.
Take care,
Rick

[ascast]

Just for clarity, are you guys using 2 or 3 thou for cast and less for jackets, or other way round? I use the Lyman cause the M step is great, but the sizes are not always the best. I have turned a few to custom size but lose the step.

[Bazoo]

I use .002 undersized plug for the size cast bullet I want to use, if using a plain based bullet.

I did some testing, whereby I expanded 44 Magnum brass with various sized expanders, and seated various sized bullets (no crimp) and then pulled them. My findings were that I got rear driving band swaging (about half of the band on my RCBS 44-250-K and the entire rear band on the RCBS 44-245-SWC (which has a shorter rear band)) when I had anything more than .002 difference.

When using .002 or .001 smaller expanders, bullets resisted swaging when cast from WW+Sn (2%) and from 50/50 WW/Pb+Sn (2%). I didn't have anything harder or softer cast up, but I do have some harder and softer alloy, and plan to do a more comprehensive test to share with everyone.

If using a gas checked bullet, the gas check resists swaging and you can even seat the bullet farther in than the expander goes into the case. This is the case with my Ranch Dog 432-265-RF.

[Chill Wills]

I use .002 undersized plug for the size cast bullet I want to use, if using a plain based bullet.

I did some testing, whereby I expanded 44 Magnum brass with various sized expanders, and seated various sized bullets (no crimp) and then pulled them. My findings were that I got rear driving band swaging (about half of the band on my RCBS 44-250-K and the entire rear band on the RCBS 44-245-SWC (which has a shorter rear band)) when I had anything more than .002 difference.

When using .002 or .001 smaller expanders, bullets resisted swaging when cast from WW+Sn (2%) and from 50/50 WW/Pb+Sn (2%). I didn't have anything harder or softer cast up, but I do have some harder and softer alloy, and plan to do a more comprehensive test to share with everyone.

If using a gas checked bullet, the gas check resists swaging and you can even seat the bullet farther in than the expander goes into the case. This is the case with my Ranch Dog 432-265-RF.

I did something like this too and reported here
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-set-expanders

Check out my VS at RIX for more info on expanders.

[THE_ANTIDOTE]

Well I placed an order for some NOE sizing bushings and expanders. Looking forward to it's arrival.

[Bazoo]

I did something like this too and reported here
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-set-expanders

Check out my VS at RIX for more info on expanders.

Thanks. Heck, I commented on it and don't even remember it lol, man. I hadn't seen it since the update, thank you for sharing.

[THE_ANTIDOTE]

I called Lyman and yeah, their M dies do have limitations in regards to seating over sized bullets. The rep even suggested I check with LEE/RCBS for custom sizing dies which made my decision to order NOE instead. The NOE has it's own set of issues, but still a better option than the M dies.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I use both the Lyman 'M' and the NOE expanders. IF the Lyman 'M' die expander IS the CORRECT diameter, I find the Lyman to be a bit easier and smoother to use. I have had more 'crumpled' necks when not carefully aligning the NOE expander for rifle cases. The NOE expander also has a 'clunk' and does not disengage from the case until it hits the bottom of the die while the Lyman is stationery with the case sliding off the expander as soon as the down stroke is started, most noticable with rifle cases. The selection of NOE expanders is far greater than Lyman's and many are available for powder-thru charging with Lee powder measuring equipment.

[PhilC]

I really like the versatility and range of options with NOE's expanders and only one expander die body, meets all my needs.

[gwpercle]

I now make it a habit when ordering a NOE boolit mould to get a proper NOE
(M- type ) expander plug to go with that NOE boolit ... the little inserts are not that expensive and take up hardly any room .
Gary

[THE_ANTIDOTE]

I did watch a couple videos of guys having some issues with the NOE, but I already ordered them and will have to see for myself. I haven't seen anyone actually drop a charge while using the NOE powder through expanders which is what had a better selection and what I opted for. I also ordered the LEE universal and charge die kit. I really like their sizing bushings so I hope the expanders will be just as good.

[Taterhead]

I have had exactly the opposite from Lyman M-dies. They expand the inside of the neck suitable for cast bullets for me. For most cartridges there is no need to expand the neck for jacketed bullets. I do use a few of the RCBS expander dies as well. I started buying these because I could use several expander buttons in one body. I soon realized I don't like changing the buttons for each cartridge.
Take care,
Rick

I'm not following. Are you talking about case mouth flair or the interior diameter of the neck? Jacketed bullets migjt not require any flair but I do want no more than 2-3 thousandths neck tension for neck tension even for jaceted. More like 1 thousandth for cast.

Example: a 40/10mm Lyman M die measures .398" IIRC. That's perfect for a .400" jacketed bullet. If I want to load a .402" cast bullet, that is far too little neck ID expansion. It might have enough case mouth flair, but when I seat thar .402" cast bullet into a .398" neck my bullets get swaged down. NOE has many nominal sizes so I could specify a .400" or .401" expander to mate better with my actual bullet diameter. Lyman doesn't offer that.

To be sure to get a long enough shank be sure to select from thenrifle expanders not oistol expanders.

[Bass Ackward]

I use the Lee universal beller then allow my bullet establish its case neck tension. Case neck tension is not a fixed variable. It, along with bullet length, material and seating depth control powder selection, primer type or selection, brass firings / age, etc. I don’t concern myself with plain base sizing of softer slugs cause, when the charge goes off, all bases expand the same which is out until the brass stops it. It only matters to me if it matters to my guns which it hasn’t so far.

I forgot bullet diameter which cases so many different opinions.

[ammohead]

Just for clarity, are you guys using 2 or 3 thou for cast and less for jackets, or other way round? I use the Lyman cause the M step is great, but the sizes are not always the best. I have turned a few to custom size but lose the step.

Ascast, I make my custom m-dies from grade 8, 9/16 fine thread bolts. Cut the hex head off and machine the unthreaded shank portion into the expander you want. They wear pretty good. And there is no insert thingy to come loose.