Need some help

[Tallison1911]

I would keep my shots to less than 50 meters.

[white eagle]

Welcome to the forum!
Where are you located?

44 mag 240 and heavier pass through feral hogs when I found test subjects.

Beware of the 30/30 rule on this site. Stay out of the swapping and selling section until then. Avoid the temptation!

been here a long time first time I hear of the 30/30 rule
personally I would use a 35 Whelen hey but if you want to go ahead
as for your alloy if you can make it happen with the accuracy the game should not be an issue
the 44 mag has taken a lot of game

[MT Gianni]

I am ok with your choices if you consider the revolver as a replacement for archery equipment. Slow stalks, picking out spots that you can shoot and waiting for the right shot to happen. It may not be the best choice for a gun to get out in a hurry and get several shots off quickly. With bigger cartridges you also have a slower recovery to your sight picture so that needs to be balanced also. I would think a large bull elk may be on the outer edge of what you are shooting. A 3-4 year old 5 point or so weighing 400 lbs is a different animal than a large old 6x6 weighing 550 lbs. Same with bear., 350 -400 lbs you are good to go. If a really big bear comes in, I would want a tree stand and a close rest, with a 15 yard shot.
Don't take any shots that you have not practiced.

[Rapier]

There are numerous targets that outline the heart area of a deer, hog, etc. Your effective range is the distance you can keep all bullets from that gun in that circle, unsupported off hand and supported. With any handgun, you must know your limitations and stick with them, very strictly.
Your alloy should drop consistant as cast bullet weights, you should slug your barrel and measure the chamber throats in the cylinder. Ruger makes some guns in 44 mag with oversized groove diameters and undersized chamber throats, so check, to get the best accuracy. Have had Ruger 44s with .4325 barrels and .4295 chamber throats, takes a bit of adjusting, to get such to shoot 1" at 100. Shooting a revolver well, at distance, takes practice and more practice.

[mnewcomb59]

Energy is a very poor estimator of terminal effect on game animals, as has been written about on many occasions by many experts, and why there are other predictive formulas (that also have their own issues).

Energy tells you the volume of the temporary stretch cavity. Hypothetical numbers but lets say 1000 foot pounds gives you a stretch cavity that, at its maximum size, might hold 2L of water. If you can use up that 1000 foot pounds in 10 inches you get a round TSC like a small soccer ball and it will blow up groundhogs into multiple pieces. If you stretch that 2L of TSC out to 4 feet of penetration, such as a trapdoor 45-70 load it will be long and shaped like a party balloon and it will not blow up a groundhog.

Energy is scientific, and there is no arguing with it. The problem is your average dummy only thinks about energy and not about penetration.

Now lets double the energy to 2000 foot pounds which can make a 4L (hypothetical numbers) stretch cavity. This stretch cavity is only about 33% wider than the 1000 foot pound stretch cavity because a sphere increases volume rapidly as its diameter slowly grows. If this amount of energy only penetrates 10 inches it will make a watermelon sized TSC. If it penetrates 48 inches it will make about a 1.5" x 48" long cylinder shaped stretch cavity. If you are talking about "deer and pronghorn" bullets in bottleneck rifles they usually penetrate 18". 2000 foot pounds will NOT drop a deer if it penetrates 4 foot , but it will if the bullet penetrates about 18".

2000 foot pounds with 18" penetration makes a TSC that can, about 50% of the time, instantly knock out a deer. The TSC is so large that it displaces blood and organs as the TSC stretches. This acts like a very strong bear hug and it bursts blood vessels in the brain, resulting in an instant drop.

That is the only thing energy is good for in calculating how good a load is - a certain amount of energy with a shallow penetrating bullet will instantly kill a deer with a lung shot. A load with less energy will not burst blood vessels in the brain and the deer will die by exsanguination. The main criteria for killing an animal is penetration. 5000 foot pounds won't kill an elephant if it only penetrates 6", but 800 foot pounds will kill an elephant if it penetrates far enough.

The volume of the stretch cavity can be calculated directly with kinetic energy. The volume of the stretch cavity has no correlation with momentum or TKO or any other formula. However, penetration kills. A 2000 foot pound wiffle ball will leave a bruise.

You need to first match penetration to the animal. Then you can worry about if you have enough energy for a decently fast kill if you have a heart and lung shot.

A 1200 foot pound foot pound 240 grain 14 BHN 43 caliber at 1100-1200 fps impact speed will make a smallish 3/8" or 1/2" hole with a 1 inch bruise around the bullseye for 4 feet.

A 1200 fpe 240 grain 43 caliber at 10-12 BHN will turn into a 48-50 caliber wadcutter and make a much larger hole and and still penetrate 30". (equal to a 300 Win Mag 200 gr Partition, enough to break big bones in elk)

A 1200 fpe 240 grain 43 caliber that mushrooms to 60-70 caliber will only penetrate 12-16 inches and doesn't have enough penetration to break big bones. The mushrooming bullet would probably kill faster on a heart lung shot with no bones hit.

Here is a temporary stretch cavity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8E138NgyFs

[Tallison1911]

I like the technical information, it makes sense to me. The unknown variables are what make the difference but those are things that can't be controlled. We do our best and trust what we have to perform to the expected standard. This was the premise of this post, just to verify my equipment was up to the task as far as it could be. Thank you everyone for your input and help. I shoot open sights and plan on not shooting beyond 35-40 meters which is why I practice out to fifty.

[Indiana shooter]

I personally run a 7.5" SBH as my primary woods sidearm, and have performed many test as well as taken many whitetail with this firearm. While a 200-250 pound, on the hoof. While whitetail isn't as hard of a target as some of the animals you intended to shoot, I would not hesitate to use your choice against any foe in North America.

I have personally seen a 265gr WFN boolit cast of 50/50 pure lead/wheelweights +5% tin (hunting alloy) loaded at 1200fps shatter the lead shoulder knuckle, travel the entire length of a 180lb field dressed buck, and still have enough energy/momentum to break the femur and exit.

I do a lot of wetpack testing, I have found this medium to provide more realistic results than gel does. As a bone simulation, I use a soaked dial rod that has been frozen, and my wetpack jig will hold up to 34" of wetpack. My preferred alloy of 50/50 +5 will begin to expand at around 1200 fps impact velocity on the straight wetpack, but will pass through the entire test jig with enough energy to blow through the 2×4 backing and stop in the 1st jug of water with my 265gr boolit. If I run the same boolit through my bone simulation 1st I see good expansion and the boolit is stopped by the 2×4 back wall of my jig. Drop the impact velocity down to around 1000 fps (the appropriate impact velocity of the buck mentioned) and I see the boolit has little expansion, and the penetration is increased into the 2nd or 3rd jug of water.

I also run 2 other boolits in that gun. One is the Lee 310gr. I cast this boolit hard, 50/50 linotype/wheelweights and heat treat it. With a muzzle velocity of 1350, I have yet to catch this boolit. I have had it go through 4 water jugs after passing through my bone simulation and wetpack jig before veering out of the jugs. I'm sure she doesn't have much steam left after that, but still haven't caught one. The other boolit is a gas checked 250gr LBT design boolit. I have a load that pushes this one at over 1400 fps and it is absolutely devastating in the wetpack. I have not had a chance to take a deer with it, but at that velocity I see amazing results with my hunting alloy. I get great penetration through straight wetpack, about 30" of penetration with great energy transfer. When testing through my bone situation, I get around 25" of penetration.

All test are done at 40 yards.

I hope you find this information helpful and as interesting as I do.

[Bigslug]

Welcome! Sounds like you're well on your way.

You might want to revisit your hardness testing methods and confirm the properties of what you're casting your bullets out of. If you indeed are getting an air cooled bullet at 14 BHN, you have hit a very rich vein in your range scrap mine! That's like tin-enriched wheel weight, creeping up on Lyman #2 territory. Hot magnum and rifle alloy stuff. Very yummy alloy, but unlikely to dig out of the ground these days.

I really segregate my stuff out before I smelt it down. Jacketed bullet cores run about 1% antimony and 9BHN. Shotgun slugs probably start life as pure lead, but tested for me at 0.1% for both antimony and tin - probably due to traces left in the pot from a prior meltdown - and came out around 8 BHN. Other People's Cast can of course be anything. I'll test a batch of that, take a guess at what it might be, and maybe use it as a hardener of jacketed cores. Going farther back, when I just threw it all together in the pot, I got about 10 BHN.

Even if the load is shooting accurately and clean, this is all worth knowing as it will affect if the bullet expands on impact, which will change how it penetrates. A non-expanding 245 grain .44 has the ability to penetrate A LOT; if it 'shrooms out to .60-.65 cal or so, reduce that by about half. The 10 BHN stuff will probably expand; anything 11-12 and above, probably not so much. For a soft-tissue broadside shot on anything you mention, either will do fine. For a quartering-away shot on a large elk with the intention of breaking the opposite side front leg, I'd lean a little more toward the non-deforming. I've been involved in the dismantling and packing out of two - they are an impressively-built critter.

[Tallison1911]

My alloy is indoor range scrap that is from the club I belong to. I've had it smelted down to 1 lb. ingots for about 8 years. Life has a way of putting things on hold. I've used a variety of ingots from different smelting sessions in a 20 lb pot. After casting into bullets and waiting a week and checking the hardness, then another week after that to check the bnh using a lee hardness tester on a total of 15 different bullets from different casting sessions and calibers the average hardness came in around 14.5 bnh. I like the technical stuff, so I keep fairly accurate records. I want to be able to duplicate success and not repeat failure. I love to hear other people's success and failure primarily for data points to add to my own experience. The information shared with me is gold as far as I'm concerned. I want to summarize what I'm reading from the previous responses is that my current bnh is on point for what I want to do.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Energy tells you the volume of the temporary stretch cavity. Hypothetical numbers but lets say 1000 foot pounds gives you a stretch cavity that, at its maximum size, might hold 2L of water. If you can use up that 1000 foot pounds in 10 inches you get a round TSC like a small soccer ball and it will blow up groundhogs into multiple pieces. If you stretch that 2L of TSC out to 4 feet of penetration, such as a trapdoor 45-70 load it will be long and shaped like a party balloon and it will not blow up a groundhog.

Energy is scientific, and there is no arguing with it. The problem is your average dummy only thinks about energy and not about penetration.

Now lets double the energy to 2000 foot pounds which can make a 4L (hypothetical numbers) stretch cavity. This stretch cavity is only about 33% wider than the 1000 foot pound stretch cavity because a sphere increases volume rapidly as its diameter slowly grows. If this amount of energy only penetrates 10 inches it will make a watermelon sized TSC. If it penetrates 48 inches it will make about a 1.5" x 48" long cylinder shaped stretch cavity. If you are talking about "deer and pronghorn" bullets in bottleneck rifles they usually penetrate 18". 2000 foot pounds will NOT drop a deer if it penetrates 4 foot , but it will if the bullet penetrates about 18".

2000 foot pounds with 18" penetration makes a TSC that can, about 50% of the time, instantly knock out a deer. The TSC is so large that it displaces blood and organs as the TSC stretches. This acts like a very strong bear hug and it bursts blood vessels in the brain, resulting in an instant drop.

That is the only thing energy is good for in calculating how good a load is - a certain amount of energy with a shallow penetrating bullet will instantly kill a deer with a lung shot. A load with less energy will not burst blood vessels in the brain and the deer will die by exsanguination. The main criteria for killing an animal is penetration. 5000 foot pounds won't kill an elephant if it only penetrates 6", but 800 foot pounds will kill an elephant if it penetrates far enough.

The volume of the stretch cavity can be calculated directly with kinetic energy. The volume of the stretch cavity has no correlation with momentum or TKO or any other formula. However, penetration kills. A 2000 foot pound wiffle ball will leave a bruise.

You need to first match penetration to the animal. Then you can worry about if you have enough energy for a decently fast kill if you have a heart and lung shot.

A 1200 foot pound foot pound 240 grain 14 BHN 43 caliber at 1100-1200 fps impact speed will make a smallish 3/8" or 1/2" hole with a 1 inch bruise around the bullseye for 4 feet.

A 1200 fpe 240 grain 43 caliber at 10-12 BHN will turn into a 48-50 caliber wadcutter and make a much larger hole and and still penetrate 30". (equal to a 300 Win Mag 200 gr Partition, enough to break big bones in elk)

A 1200 fpe 240 grain 43 caliber that mushrooms to 60-70 caliber will only penetrate 12-16 inches and doesn't have enough penetration to break big bones. The mushrooming bullet would probably kill faster on a heart lung shot with no bones hit.

Here is a temporary stretch cavity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8E138NgyFs

Nice explanation w/ detail, However, I think that this really needs to state: "Energy tells you the POTENTIAL volume of the temporary stretch cavity."

There is a heavy dependency on bullet design - Which you get to by stating that "You need to first match penetration to the animal".

The issue I see, is that the average person will just read "Energy tells you the volume of the temporary stretch cavity.", and disregard the bullet matching to the game animal and how it is shot (broadside rib cage impact does suggest a different bullet construction than one centered in the brisket, or through a shoulder, if the cartridge (energy potential) selected and bullet weight is marginal). People have done this for decades. 'It has x fpe, I'm good... a WT deer requires 1000 fpe...' etc.

No penetration, all that energy is spent somewhere else. Buddy shot a steer in the head w/ hand loaded 45-70 w/ soft 400 gr at 1600 fps - no penetration, deflected off head. Angry, and materially unharmed, steer was result.
Nothing but penetration from a pointy solid or even RN solid in a light animal - much of the projectile energy is still carried at exit which can not act on the animal. This is why it is OK to shoot small 30 lb antelope w/ a 375 solid and still have a nice trophy.

[mnewcomb59]

Nice explanation w/ detail, However, I think that this really needs to state: "Energy tells you the POTENTIAL volume of the temporary stretch cavity."

There is a heavy dependency on bullet design - Which you get to by stating that "You need to first match penetration to the animal".

The issue I see, is that the average person will just read "Energy tells you the volume of the temporary stretch cavity.", and disregard the bullet matching to the game animal and how it is shot (broadside rib cage impact does suggest a different bullet construction than one centered in the brisket, or through a shoulder, if the cartridge (energy potential) selected and bullet weight is marginal). People have done this for decades. 'It has x fpe, I'm good... a WT deer requires 1000 fpe...' etc.

No penetration, all that energy is spent somewhere else. Buddy shot a steer in the head w/ hand loaded 45-70 w/ soft 400 gr at 1600 fps - no penetration, deflected off head. Angry, and materially unharmed, steer was result.
Nothing but penetration from a pointy solid or even RN solid in a light animal - much of the projectile energy is still carried at exit which can not act on the animal. This is why it is OK to shoot small 30 lb antelope w/ a 375 solid and still have a nice trophy.

Before you shoot an animal you should ask yourself "do I have enough penetration?" If the answer is yes, then you should ask yourself "do I have enough energy? If the answer is yes, then you should shoot if you are confident.

You can also look at a big ol' animal and ask yourself "do I have enough energy?" And if the answer is yes, then you should ask yourself "do I have enough penetration?" If the answer is "no", or "I don't know", then you better not pull the trigger.

I would much rather shoot a deer with a 250 foot pound linotype 38 special in a model 1892 lever action and prepare for a long tracking job than shoot apissed off elephant with a 30-06 Blue Box 150 grain Power Shok!

[TurnipEaterDown]

Before you shoot an animal you should ask yourself "do I have enough penetration?" If the answer is yes, then you should ask yourself "do I have enough energy? If the answer is yes, then you should shoot if you are confident.

You can also look at a big ol' animal and ask yourself "do I have enough energy?" And if the answer is yes, then you should ask yourself "do I have enough penetration?" If the answer is "no", or "I don't know", then you better not pull the trigger.

I would much rather shoot a deer with a 250 foot pound linotype 38 special in a model 1892 lever action and prepare for a long tracking job than shoot apissed off elephant with a 30-06 Blue Box 150 grain Power Shok!

I think we see it about the same way then!

[MGySgt]

I have taken 2 Elk with a 45/90 with a 430gr FP sized at .462 with a muzzle velocity of 1500 FPS. Both 1 shot kills with complete pass through.

First on was quartering away and entered back part of the lung, clipped the offside shoulder and exited he tumbled like a rabbit at the shot.

The second one was broadside and went in just behind the shoulder and exited the other side, Cow she went 5 yards forward and then turned down hill for another 10 yards. Snow on the ground and it looked like someone threw a bucket of blood on the offside where I hit her.

The boolits were cast from straight WW and heat treated. Didn't have a way of testing hardness back them, but those suckers were hard. I did a non scientific test where I put one on an anvil and smashed it with a sledge hammer. It didn't fracture so I knew they wouldn't fracture on an Elk.

Best table fair in the animal kingdom in my opinion.

[Bass Ackward]

What’s an old jarhead know about guns or shooting.

[MGySgt]

Good to see your still alive and kicking.

[Tallison1911]

What I can gather from the commentary is that I've got what I need as ling as I do my part at reasonable distance.