Lost at sea.

[Abert Rim]

Joe, your analysis of the ease of keeping a flintlock running in times of percussion cap shortages is spot on. You can likely get by with one of the higher-quality middle-of-the-pack guns like a TC, but I would be leery of the lower-end Spanish and Italian guns in flint, unless you can tinker with the locks like Nobade. A cheap lock that often fails to properly ignite the main charge is incredibly frustrating. My first one was a Lyman/Investarm trade rifle and I was lucky to get a 30 percent ignition rate. Away it went. Some years later I came into a Jackie Brown fowler with a very fast and properly tuned lock and it was like night and day -- instant and reliable ignition. Total game changer -- like Kibler's kits, which have raised the bar for everyone. One other note. You mention having a .50 mold, but be aware that barrel land and groove measurements will tell you what ball diameter and patch combination you MUST shoot for accuracy.

[Nazgul]

I have a Kibler Colonial in 58 and a Woodsrunner in 54. They don’t get any better for the money.
Have many others as well. My favorite is a Green River Rifle Works Hawken in 54. Worth a bit of $ now but gets shot often.

Don

[Sasquatch-1]

Just to take the side of the underdog here, I have five muzzleloaders right now. A Euroarms Kentuckian flinter, 2 custom made Lancaster style flinters, a T/C Hawken style Flinter and a Tradition's Hawken style Cap lock. Out of all of these the Traditions is the most accurate. Not all of the Spanish rifles are junk.

That being said, if you find one dirt cheap you can always re-barrel it and replace the lock. And depending on how much you spend for the rifle still come out under $1000.00.

If you are looking at a pawn shop or for any used rifle, make sure you have a good bore light to exam the barrel.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of a flintlock, but 209 primers are easy to find still. Inlines are easy to clean and shoot. It goes bang every time and without any delay. A CVA Wolf will run you $240 bucks and are sold everywhere.

[dtknowles]

I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of a flintlock, but 209 primers are easy to find still. Inlines are easy to clean and shoot. It goes bang every time and without any delay. A CVA Wolf will run you $240 bucks and are sold everywhere.

This is my question, with something like that CVA Wolf running $240 new, why can't I find a flinter in that price range. I can't find one for less than $450 even used. Yeah, I can find 209's and I have caps but want a flintlock. Oh, and a thousand 209's will cost as much as the gun. I kind of understand people shooting 209's probably don't shoot 1000 shots in two lifetimes. I certainly have not shot my 10ML half that many times but I am not done with it. My percussion Hawken is hanging over the fireplace, looks great there with all its brass. My TC New Englander gets the most BP shooting but I was looking for a light caliber flintlock (something under 40 cal.) because I mostly shoot targets and like the idea of not buying or making igniters. I can make my own BP and do but I also have plenty on hand including 4f. These small caliber flintlocks seem to be an uncommon item.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Joe, your analysis of the ease of keeping a flintlock running in times of percussion cap shortages is spot on. You can likely get by with one of the higher-quality middle-of-the-pack guns like a TC, but I would be leery of the lower-end Spanish and Italian guns in flint, unless you can tinker with the locks like Nobade. A cheap lock that often fails to properly ignite the main charge is incredibly frustrating. My first one was a Lyman/Investarm trade rifle and I was lucky to get a 30 percent ignition rate. Away it went. Some years later I came into a Jackie Brown fowler with a very fast and properly tuned lock and it was like night and day -- instant and reliable ignition..........

This is where I could use some help. " A cheap lock that often fails to properly ignite the main charge is incredibly frustrating." I can imagine it would be. Is the problem always the lock. I hear people changing the lock, does that mean the frizzen is fine and the problem is just the lock? Not a problem with the flint. I have heard of people having bad flints, not best stone, not knapped properly, not clamped at the proper angle. What is special about a Flintlock, Lock? So, it is not just like a percussion lock with a different hammer? I mean, a spring, a cam, a sear, a release. Tuning, do you change the spring, the cam, the amount of rotation. Is it because at the end of travel the strike is weak? I read about people having hybrid guns that you can change from flint to percussion and back, but I don't think they change the lock.

I guess I need a tutorial, can someone recommend one.

Tim

[LAGS]

The Hybrid that I just built uses a percussion lock And a Flintlock.
I have the stock set up so I just change the whole lock , the nipple drum or the flash hole liner.

[dtknowles]

The Hybrid that I just built uses a percussion lock And a Flintlock.
I have the stock set up so I just change the whole lock , the nipple drum or the flash hole liner.

So the Pan is attached to the lock? I see, that is part of where I was misunderstanding. I was thinking the pan was attached to the barrel as part of the breach like on my percussion guns. The nipple screws into the breach there is no nipple drum on my guns (there is a pan like shield around the nipple. I have seen guns with a nipple drum, just never owned one. So the Flintlock lock is much more complicated than the percussion lock as it has the pan, frizzen and the frizzen spring along with the hammer and sear stuff. It seems to me the critical elements are the pan alignment with the flash hole, a proper flint and a frizzen of the right temper. I guess lock speed and striking force might be important too.

Tim

[Nobade]

You may find this thread useful. There is so much information out there on lock tuning, some of it correct and some not. The main thing is everything needs to be balanced with everything else to get it to work well. Sometimes the slightest changes will take you from low reliability to high or the other way around. These mechanisms seem simple but in reality they are a complex interaction of things that happen at very high speed.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum...?topic=10691.0

[waksupi]

I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of a flintlock, but 209 primers are easy to find still. Inlines are easy to clean and shoot. It goes bang every time and without any delay. A CVA Wolf will run you $240 bucks and are sold everywhere.

A decent flint lock will cost you $240 without anything else included.

[dtknowles]

You may find this thread useful. There is so much information out there on lock tuning, some of it correct and some not. The main thing is everything needs to be balanced with everything else to get it to work well. Sometimes the slightest changes will take you from low reliability to high or the other way around. These mechanisms seem simple but in reality they are a complex interaction of things that happen at very high speed.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum...?topic=10691.0

Thanks for that link

Tim

[dtknowles]

A decent flint lock will cost you $240 without anything else included.

You mean, just the lock, no stock or barrel? That is just crazy.

Tim

[LAGS]

I don’t think that the $240 cost is that high.
I see it is more of an investment than an expense.
I had to find and buy a TC flintlock to build that Hybrid that I did in that previous post .
Since that lock is not the only lock for the Hybrid, I can use that lock in other rifles that I am building .

[Nobade]

Chambers large Siler is up to $295 now. That seems expensive but just try to make one.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

A decent flint lock will cost you $240 without anything else included.

Really? Where?

[dtknowles]

Chambers large Siler is up to $295 now. That seems expensive but just try to make one.

You can buy a whole new 22 rf revolver for less than that or many other complete guns used. I guess the issue is not many of these locks are made so if you want one you have to pay thru the nose.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Really? Where?

https://www.stonewallcreekoutfitters...ocks/lr-locks/

[Abert Rim]

I disagree that anyone is "paying through the nose" for a high-quality flint lock. The good ones are milled, hand-assembled and hand tuned, with parts properly hardened -- especially the frizzen. They are not made in China. If the price comes as an insupportable shock, go see what a plain-jane JM Marlin .30-30 these days -- or stick with some plastic-stocked wonder that takes 209 caps, pellets and jacketed pistol bullets in plastic cups. Yuck. To each his own.

https://www.flintlocks.com/locks.htm

[indian joe]

You can buy a whole new 22 rf revolver for less than that or many other complete guns used. I guess the issue is not many of these locks are made so if you want one you have to pay thru the nose.

Tim

If you are an experienced flintlock shooter and a decent gun tinkerer you can make a cheap second hand lock perform quite nice - my pet flintlock is still wearing a $40 CVA lock after 25 years.
most experienced blokes like Waksupi wouldnt be caught dead using such a lock but I dont feel handicapped stepping up alongside someone with a custom rifle and a siler or chambers lock but bog standard the CVA was ordinary enough. Needs the shooting experience and the tinkerability to make it right.

[waksupi]

You mean, just the lock, no stock or barrel? That is just crazy.

Tim

that's exactly what I mean.