Making Charcoal

[lead chucker]

Also in the video his uses 77-13-10 instead of 75-15-10 recipe. Any one else tried this?

[dtknowles]

I have to admit I was always confused about how using hard to get specialty woods like willow would make better black powder vs just buying a bag of Fogo lump charcoal. But TP?

Is it just that starting from purer cellulose is better? So how about making it from old cotton T Shirts?

Been tried, not better. Jury is still out on why TP is so good or why willow and balsa are the best. Charcoal is a simple but complex product, simple because for most applications any old charcoal will do.

Some people are very fussy about what charcoal they will cook with as it can make the food taste a certain way.

You see, charcoal is not even close to pure carbon, not like graphite or diamond.

Even pure carbon comes in variations, I just mentioned two but there are hundreds maybe thousands of kinds of carbon crystal structures.

Beside the different carbon crystals in charcoal there are compounds in charcoal, that is why it is called charcoal and not carbon. There are hydrocarbons and there is ash. Ash is a whole story on its own because ash is a generic term not a precise chemical term. Ash contains potassium and Calcium oxides and carbonates along with traces of other chemicals. One thing that is probably not present in TP is potassium carbonate as it is soluble in water and a strong base so the processing of pulp to make paper almost certainly removes the potassium carbonate. This will cause a reduction in ash in TP charcoal. Ash is not good for BP.

[lead chucker]

Definitely looking into it that's for sure. Like the guy in the video said, if you are going to go through the time to make your own you should take the time to make it the best you can. So if using TP is better than you should try it. How about paper towels?

[lead chucker]

Im in the mid 1300fps to low 1400s with a 54 round ball with 90 gr to 100 gr 3ff with my powder which i thought was pretty good. Seems my powder needs some work. Always something to improve on. I would like more speed which equals more foot pounds of energy down range where you need it. This stuff is so much fun. This kind of stuff keeps me awake at night thinking about it.

[lead chucker]

dtknowles if what you say is right that makes a lot of sense, when you make your own charcoal there is bound to be some ash. Im sure it can be minimized but is unavoidable. Thanks for the insight on this.

[Brimstone]

I use 2 paint cans with 3/8" copper tube bolted to the lids to vent outside my grill.
My charring rig is a lightly customized $100 grill with a sheet steel baffle completely covering the cast iron grill. There are 2 rows of 1/2" holes along the edge of the sheet allowing cooler blended gasses to pass through.

The idea is indirect heating of the retorts in a controlled and repeatable way with no guess work.

I'm able to tune all 3 burners to keep the grills 4 thermometers at 600°F with some periodic observation and adjustment.

I get char that is black with brown notes throughout the grain structure along with crystals of hydrocarbons, most likely creosote.

When milled, the brown notes blend to a dark dark brown black and the crystals remaining with an extremely fine glitter.

Depending on species, assays between 30 and 40% hydrocarbon content.

High hydrocarbon content char is hygroscopic, store it air tight and probably still best to cycle through a dehydrator over night before milling in a ball mill.

After made into powder, hygroscopic nature is of little concern to me, it stays in canisters in an ammo can in a copper reinforced lock box. Ammo stays in ammo cans.

[sailcaptain]

Now this was a good read. A while back I asked the forum about Goex Fg Cannon Powder, which is not available anymore. It’s what I always used in my cannon. And said I thought I would try making my own black powder for my cannon. Using the tried and true recipes found here.
I made a small batch and was at the range testing it out, and a blackpowder hunter asked what I used for the charcoal. I told him I just milled some from my trusted supplier of charcoal (for grilling) I got locally.
He told me he makes his own using toilet paper and has for years. I was shocked, never heard of it.
Simple design, just like the video mentioned here. Backyard fire pit, old thicker walled can than a paint can works great, if you have one.
Comes out clean and readily available.
Thank you for the post…Great read, as I said, try the process.

[dtknowles]

dtknowles if what you say is right that makes a lot of sense, when you make your own charcoal there is bound to be some ash. Im sure it can be minimized but is unavoidable. Thanks for the insight on this.

I think I was not clear, the components I am talking about the Potassium and Calcium carbonates (called ash) are not avoidable when making charcoal (at home or in a factory) from wood and they are not really ash while it is still charcoal they are trapped in the carbon crystal structures and aren't released while the carbon is still a solid. They become ash when the carbon is oxidized to a gas, they remain solid as ash you see when you burn charcoal. When a pulp mill treats and washes pulp to make paper they mix the pulp with water and other chemicals. This will remove the Potassium as it is soluble in water, the Sodium is not soluble but might react with any acid or maybe the other chemicals in the process and be removed, this I don't know. I think this is why the TP charcoal makes better BP, less ash more carbon per pound, purer fuel but with the somethings that are special in charcoal that are not in pure carbon that make charcoal better for BP than other forms of carbon.
Tim

[dtknowles]

Now this was a good read. A while back I asked the forum about Goex Fg Cannon Powder, which is not available anymore. It’s what I always used in my cannon. And said I thought I would try making my own black powder .......

You should keep making your own powder but know that Estes is back in production with Goex powder, I think the whole product line, I just got an order from Powder Valley that included Cannon.



Tim

[HamGunner]

The only problem is i have probably 15-18 pounds already made from cedar and just pucked up another 5 pounds

LOL, I am in the same boat. I have a bunch of Black Willow and Sassafras canned up, thinking that I had some A-1 BP. Well, it is very good and likely good enough for my uses anyway. But yes, there is always room for improvement if one keeps looking for it.

I used to do all sorts of load work ups for my center fire guns and finally decided that I was chasing my tail. Like a dog or cat going in a circle, I was never going to get that most perfect load. There was always one out there that might beat what I had already found, but when does one pause and decide that good enough is, well, Good Enough.

I had already decided that my BP was good enough for me, but along came TP. While perhaps it is not all that much better actually, it sure is so much simpler to char and a way less nasty to work with since it does not need to be ground up and screened to get air float results. So, heck, here we go again.

Toilet Paper charcoal does test a very, very low % of ash. Another good reason to pursue TP BP.
Darn it, there is my tail again.

[dtknowles]

Additional research on my part found this:

"Hardwood ashes contain more potassium than those from
softwood."

This could be why softwood charcoal makes better BP than hardwood.

I have taken wood ash and leached the soluble minerals to create Potash. The leachate is called wood ash lye or Potassium lye (Potassium Hydroxide, KOH). Regular lye is Sodium Hydroxide NaOH. If you evaporate the wood ash lye you get Potassium Carbonate KCO3. This is useful as a fertilizer or bleach and can be used to make soft soap. To make hard soap you need Sodium Hydroxide.

I know, TMI

Tim

[Delkal]

When you leach wood ash you get potash (Potassium Carbonate, K2CO3) in the solution and not Potassium Hydroxide, KOH. To make Potassium Hydroxide you need to add lime (Ca oxide) to the solution which will precipitate out the carbonate as Calcium Carbonate (Ca2CO3) leaving Potassium Hydroxide in solution which is a much more caustic base. Its a good thing there is no Potassium Hydroxide in charcoal since it will absorb moisture and corrode any metal.

Has anyone tried leaching charcoal to reduce the potassium salts? It should be soluble. The chemistry starting from ash is already complex and I have no idea what is going on while it is still in the charcoal state. But if you add water to powdered charcoal and the solution is basic that will probably be from the Potassium Carbonate.

Will filtering this off reduce Potassium Carbonate enough to matter? I have no clue.

.

[dtknowles]

When you leach wood ash you get potash (Potassium Carbonate, K2CO3) in the solution and not Potassium Hydroxide, KOH. To make Potassium Hydroxide you need to add lime (Ca oxide) to the solution which will precipitate out the carbonate as Calcium Carbonate (Ca2CO3) leaving Potassium Hydroxide in solution which is a much more caustic base. Its a good thing there is no Potassium Hydroxide in charcoal since it will absorb moisture and corrode any metal.

Has anyone tried leaching charcoal to reduce the potassium salts? It should be soluble. The chemistry starting from ash is already complex and I have no idea what is going on while it is still in the charcoal state. But if you add water to powdered charcoal and the solution is basic that will probably be from the Potassium Carbonate.

Will filtering this off reduce Potassium Carbonate enough to matter? I have no clue.

.

I am not sure you can dissolve the salts out of charcoal, I think they are trapped in the carbon crystals, but I might be wrong.

You are correct that to get solid potassium hydroxide you would have to do as you described or use some other method but if you dissolve potassium carbonate in water it creates potassium hydroxide.

"potassium carbonate when dissolved in water, becomes potassium hydroxide and carbon dioxide."

K2CO3 + H2O -> 2KOH + CO2

Wood ash lye is an alkali metal hydroxide mostly potassium hydroxide KOH. It can be obtained by using rainwater to leach wood ashes, which are strongly alkaline and highly soluble in water.

If this is not correct, then my internet research is in error.

Tim

[LAGS]

Today I made a half pound of BP with that cheaper TP that I made a couple days ago.
After pressing it into pucks , and before it was totally dry , I tested some chunks.
So far it looks like one of the Fastest powders that I have ever made .
And flashes pretty clean .
Now I have to make some powder with the Cottonelle TP charcoal and see if is any better.

[2TM101]

Now this was a good read. A while back I asked the forum about Goex Fg Cannon Powder, which is not available anymore. It’s what I always used in my cannon.

If only you were local. I make so much 1F.

[lead chucker]

LAGS do you have a chronograph? If you do and next time you shoot the TP powder can you do a comparison to see what your velocity difference is between what you make and the TP? I will do the same but We are supposed to get 30 to 40 inches of snow in the next week here where i live and i won't be making any charcoal till the weather gets better. I cant wait for winter to be over.

[sailcaptain]

Admittedly, I haven’t looked for any manufacturers grade powder in a while. I have an ample supply for my needs right now. But thank you Tim for telling me Estes is making Goex. I will go later today and look.
If I were local to you 2TM101, I would become one of your best friend’s.
Making powder is a nice pastime though.

[indian joe]

dtknowles if what you say is right that makes a lot of sense, when you make your own charcoal there is bound to be some ash. Im sure it can be minimized but is unavoidable. Thanks for the insight on this.

ash comes from oxygen getting in the can - usually after its removed from the fire - I dont light the smoke stream - pull the can off as soon as the volume of smoke from the vent eases even a little - and cool it down as quick s you can - a cold day to cook it helps - i have dunked a can half way in water a couple of times (fine so long as it is still sealed at the seams) if the contents stays hot for long you will get spontaneous combustion inside as soon as enough oxygen enters to support burning = ash

[indian joe]

I am not sure you can dissolve the salts out of charcoal, I think they are trapped in the carbon crystals, but I might be wrong.

You are correct that to get solid potassium hydroxide you would have to do as you described or use some other method but if you dissolve potassium carbonate in water it creates potassium hydroxide.

"potassium carbonate when dissolved in water, becomes potassium hydroxide and carbon dioxide."

K2CO3 + H2O -> 2KOH + CO2

Wood ash lye is an alkali metal hydroxide mostly potassium hydroxide KOH. It can be obtained by using rainwater to leach wood ashes, which are strongly alkaline and highly soluble in water.

If this is not correct, then my internet research is in error.

Tim

if you gonna start messing with potassium hydroxide be VERY careful!!! that stuff, is multiple times more bite than caustic soda, a minor splash of concentrated KOH can cost an eye easy enough.

[Delkal]

I am not sure you can dissolve the salts out of charcoal, I think they are trapped in the carbon crystals, but I might be wrong.

You are correct that to get solid potassium hydroxide you would have to do as you described or use some other method but if you dissolve potassium carbonate in water it creates potassium hydroxide.

"potassium carbonate when dissolved in water, becomes potassium hydroxide and carbon dioxide."

K2CO3 + H2O -> 2KOH + CO2

Wood ash lye is an alkali metal hydroxide mostly potassium hydroxide KOH. It can be obtained by using rainwater to leach wood ashes, which are strongly alkaline and highly soluble in water.

If this is not correct, then my internet research is in error.

Tim

I believe your equation is backwards. KOH can absorb CO2 from the air to form K2CO3. This is the industrial way to make K2CO3. While theoretically if you had a KOH solution and boiled it down you might get a trace of K2CO3 from the CO2 in the air but you wouldn't get a fine powder. You would get a thick bubbly boiling solution of KOH that would instantly do major damage to anything it touched (especially skin).

My understanding is that wood potash is K2CO3 and it can be used to make soap but you have to cook it with the fat. Someone found that by adding lime (CaO) the calcium in it will react with the carbonate in solution (from the K2CO3) and precipitate out Ca2CO3 since it is insoluble. Then what is left in the liquid is KOH and that is a much stronger base. I will make soap at room temperature.