Marlin 1895 Accuracy: Last Desperate Attempts

[JimB..]

I like good old fashion IMR3031. Start at 10-15% below max, plain base is fine, and soften that alloy a bit or size it down another .001.

This assumes no damage at the muzzle, no extreme constriction where the barrel threads into the receiver, and a trustworthy optic well mounted.

[FergusonTO35]

I had a beautiful 1972 that was never more than minute of deer at 50 yards with boolits. It had very thin micro-groove rifling and I suspect it was a bit overbore. It was an honest 98% gun purchased from an estate, and I decided a cheaper and more boolit friendly rifle would be a better choice. I ended up selling the 1895 to a collector for twice what I had in it. Currently have a Henry single shot and love it.

[farmbif]

45-70 has become a very popular caliber once again fairly recently.there are more than ever casting for them. two things I might suggest, put a call out to fellow casters for samples of different bullet weights and styles and see if maybe a different bullet might help in the accuracy department. second have you tried removing any stress from the barrel by loosening the barrel bands and maybe even removing the front stock and be sure there is a good channel that does not press on the barrel. in doing this to see if it might improve accuracy its a balancing act as a lose magazine tube might cause feed problems and be sure the screws in the receiver are not loose.

[Bent Ramrod]

M. L. McPherson’s Accurizing the Factory Rifle has a lot of tips on bedding, relieving, stock-bolt installation and other methods of correcting accuracy problems in lever-action, two-piece stock rifles, including the Marlins. A read through that might give you some ideas on corrective measures.

[rockrat]

You might get by with your alloy and a non gas checked boolit if you powder coat it first before you size/lube it. I know there are those that will holler that you don't need lube with a PC boolit, but in my 35 Whelens, the PC/lubed boolit shot substancially better. You could try it both ways and see if it makes a difference. Also, you might water cooled boolits to harden them. I drop them straight out of the mould into a small bucket 2/3 rds full of cool water.

[Electrod47]

Just a little aside....I took my newly acquired 1895 Cowboy in 45/70 to the range late fall 2006 to see where "she's hitin'" iron sights. Since hunting season would be starting shortly in Texas and my shared lease was in Coleman TX...I was in a hurry and wanted a hog or 2 to go with a deer. This new fangled Hornady Lever Evolution 45/70 caught my eye for some reason, so I bought several boxes. Seated at the bench at Alpine Gun Range's 50 yard target to start I put 60 rounds down range and could not even group 12 inches!!!!!...I still wear a dark brown blotch on my right shoulder that never did clear up. The surface of the skin there is still rough 16 years later. I came away with such a flinch the gun was useless to me from then on, so it got traded. I still shoot 45/70's...single shots with heavy padded stocks. To end the story, taking the gun home that day I finally did the most simple thing and felt the front sight...It was loose and was bouncing back and forth during recoil.

[RG1911]

Thank you all for your considered recommendations.

The first thing I'll do is back off the velocity with 12 grains of Unique. My inventory sheet says I have some.

I agree with all the recommendations to go with a gas check boolit. My reasons for not starting with one are: when I ordered the mold, gas checks often were hard to find, and when you did, the price caused heart palpitations, and; I use a Star sizer/lubricator and many moons ago when I tried a gas check boolit for a .357, the checks just fell off. (This was 50+ years ago when I was using wheel weights, which were a pretty good alloy back then, but that did not completely fill the mold. The base, then, was undersize enough that the checks couldn't hold.)

I guess that if at some time I wanted a load to stop a bear, I'll just have to use jacketed -- tolerable accuracy at shorter range.

And I'll slug the bore again to look for tight spots.

Cheers, Richard

[RG1911]

M. L. McPherson’s Accurizing the Factory Rifle has a lot of tips on bedding, relieving, stock-bolt installation and other methods of correcting accuracy problems in lever-action, two-piece stock rifles, including the Marlins. A read through that might give you some ideas on corrective measures.

Thank you. I have that book and will reread the information about 2-piece stocks.

Richard

[RG1911]

To end the story, taking the gun home that day I finally did the most simple thing and felt the front sight...It was loose and was bouncing back and forth during recoil.

I did that with a scope mount. Embarrassing.

Richard

[beltfed]

RG1911,
Re. your "50 year ago experience with wheel weights"
. hat fill out tproblem could have easily been
solved with addition of as little as 1% tin . Also, then perhaps a slightly higher casting temperature
beltfed/arnie

[longbow]

Back to your post #11... I guess you were asking me about the rod I used for lapping. No, not threaded rod, I used 5/16" plain steel cold rolled rod with one end turned down to 1/4" then that threaded. The bullet drilled through in my lathe then pushed onto the threaded end and a nut to hold it in place.

I also used a muzzle protector to keep the rod from rubbing on the bore while lapping.

I was worried about lapping a microgroove barrel but it worked well and I focussed on the tight spots then made a few full length strokes. The bore looked good after and accuracy much improved and with virtually no leading unlike prior.

Hahaha! Also as per Electrod47's post #26 I had the same thing happen with my 1894 except that the sight came loose at the range while I was shooting then came off and hit me in the forhead during recoil. The slamming back and forth damaged the threads so I wound up soldering the front sight to the barrel! No local gunsmiths to retap the barrel to the next larger screw size.

Make me wonder why I like Marlins! Or my Marlin anyway, but oddly I do.

Longbow

[Tazman1602]

Rick,

Thank you. I'll have to buy a few pounds of a softer alloy. Do you have a suggestion? (eg: 1:20, 1:40)

Richard

Try 30-1 from Rotometals, Steve Brooks turned me on to this. A couple of my 1895 45-70’s slug right at what yours is, I cast at .462 then lube and size at .461, I also use 4198 and get fantastic accuracy —- are you sure it’s micro-groove? Mine are Ballard rifling and cast works fine, also micro groove will shoot cast fine but I can’t remember how you have to go about that….

[pipehand]

I have a JM ballard rifled Guide gun that is very accurate. I fire lapped the barrel with the LBT paste, so maybe any dovetail issues were removed. I size a 425 grain group buy plainbase to .4605 and use 25.3 grains of 2400. It wears an XS leverrail and the XS ghostring sights. I polished up the trigger mating surfaces a little. One of the things that makes it easier to shoot more accurately is not trying to turn a 7.5 pound carbine into an elephant gun. 1330fps is a lot easier to shoot without getting flinchy than an equal weight boolit going 500 fps faster.

[Elmer Fudd]

Well, it's been a hot minute since the OP posted and I'm dying to know what has become of this errant Marlin. As a fellow Wyomingite, I have personal interest in this matter.

I am at the other end of the state (Powell), but I do have several 45/70 moulds, sizing dies and a few different alloys to fiddle with. Also have a bore scope, lapping compound and a chronograph. Richard, if you make it to Powell, look me up (PM here before) and I will do anything I can to sort this out with you.

[MT Gianni]

Your best options are around 12 bhn or 17-19 bhn.

[JFE]

This article is worth reading:

http://www.lasc.us/fryxellmarlin-microgroove.htm

I have two Marlins, one is a 45/70 and the other a 35 Rem. Both have microgroove barrels and both are very accurate with cast bullets.

My 45/70 slugs 0.4585” and the microgroove rifling is very shallow. My most accurate mould drops pills that only measure 0.459”, yet these bullets (which are GC-ed) will basically enlarge the same hole.

The 35 Rem is similar. I tend to not run low velocity loads in both of these rifles as I have a 44 and 357 that are better suited to lighter loads.

As pointed out by several posters, the load you’ve used is too fast for a non-GC bullet. Try throttling it back to the 1200-1400fps range.

Don’t give up on developing loads with heavier cast pills. They can and do work.

[rintinglen]

RL-7 did not work well for me in the 45-70 in my Marlin CB. I had much better results with 2400 and 3031, and 10 grains of Red Dot was a nice plinker.

[Noah Zark]

I've diagnosed levergun accuracy problems several times in the past 40+ years when there's been no obvious problem by stripping away the barrel bands, tubular magazine, forearm, etc., and effectively making them single shots, and test firing from resting on range bags to get an indication on their "intrinsic accuracy". That helped sort out particular handloads as being better or worse for accuracy, without interference from all the barrel vibration-influencing of the missing " up front bits".

Once a load or two were proven, then a given rifle was reassembled, but carefully paying attention to keeping the mag tube at 6:00 bottom dead center, or doing what I had to in order for it to be there. Too often, when viewed from the muzzle, levergun magazines are "clocked" to one side or another and that can/will affect accuracy. Sometimes clearance had to be opened up for the rear band screw if the rifle had a carbine band; same for the front band screw between the barrel and mag tube. Sometimes the ID of the front band would need opening up around the mag tube to eliminate binding. Often I'd not tighten the screws but only just snug and relying on a bit of blue Locktite to keep them fast.

One of the bigger culprits was the screw in the mag endcap whose end bears in a drilled recess in the underside of the barrel. The screw tip must be in that recess to keep the mag tube from walking forward under recoil, but on some guns from the factory that screw when tight really bears on the underside of the barrel, affecting harmonics somehow and usually not in a good way. On some guns I would relieve how the screw tip would bear on the barrel recess by slightly enlarging the recess, or minutely shortening the screw tip. The screw tip MUST project into the barrel recess to to keep the mag tube in place, but it doesn't have to bear hard on the recess.

When done and reassembled, with fewer interference forces and a mag tube at BDC, groups were 1/2 or 1/3 what they started out being before firing as a single shot with nothing but the barrel. With the gun fully "dressed" again, the grouping of the most accurate handload would open up some, but it was a respectable group, not a pattern. My biggest challenge was an 1894 Big Bore 375; it patterned before and held 2.0 to 2.25" groups fired offhand with a given 250 gr GC bullet over IMR3031 handload. YMMV.

Noah

[FergusonTO35]

Thank you all for your considered recommendations.

The first thing I'll do is back off the velocity with 12 grains of Unique. My inventory sheet says I have some.

I agree with all the recommendations to go with a gas check boolit. My reasons for not starting with one are: when I ordered the mold, gas checks often were hard to find, and when you did, the price caused heart palpitations, and; I use a Star sizer/lubricator and many moons ago when I tried a gas check boolit for a .357, the checks just fell off. (This was 50+ years ago when I was using wheel weights, which were a pretty good alloy back then, but that did not completely fill the mold. The base, then, was undersize enough that the checks couldn't hold.)

I guess that if at some time I wanted a load to stop a bear, I'll just have to use jacketed -- tolerable accuracy at shorter range.

And I'll slug the bore again to look for tight spots.

Cheers, Richard

My Henry loves 12-13 grains Unique under the Lyman 292 and pretty much every other boolit I've tried. If that charge plus a properly fitting boolit doesn't shoot well then you have problems other than ammo.

[john.k]

Ive had a Marlin 95 since 1978 ,and one problem was light primer strike ....so I use LP primers..............accuracy has always been OK for me ,about 6" at 100 yds using an Lyman sight ..........however ,one thing I noticed with recovered bullets was the rifling grooves were close to stripped ,any more velocity ,and I suspect they would strip ..........however a harder alloy would likely cure this