Where did the full-size snubbies go?

[pettypace]

Thanks Pettypace.
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[rintinglen]

In thinking back, the only 2" full sized .357 I can recall being made by a U.S. Manufacturer was the Colt Lawman. Built on the MKIII frame, with fixed sights and a rounded grip, it was less than successful. The problem with the MKIII guns was the uniformly heavy trigger pull. They averaged 15 pounds, though I have read of some as light as 12 pounds. None that I ever examined went that light. Additionally, they had a clunky feel. That was not the butter smooth pull of a pre-war Smith, nor even the more jerky trigger on the post war OP's. To me, they felt like a Model 19 that was 10% overweight, like a super model who had let herself go. Eventually, they got around to revising the MKIII and made a MK V, which did have a decent trigger but that was too late. By then, the age of the wondernine had arrived and if it didn't hold 14 or more rounds, the cops weren't carrying it. (Because Heaven forfend that one should find himself "outgunned".) And the police were the main purchasers of duty handguns. If Colt had made the MK V action from the git-go, I wonder if The Security Six line would have ever got off the ground. But they didn't, so we'll never know.

I had a MKIII trooper 6 inch which I carried briefly, but soon sold. It was quite accurate when fired single action, especially with the Speer 146 grain HP's, but the heavy double action made rapid, "combat" shooting very hard. A 4 inch worked better in a patrol car, and was noticeably lighter. IIRC, the 6 inch Trooper weighed just about the same as the model 28, which weighed nearly 2 3/4 pounds. Add that, a couple of speed loaders of ammo, a Motorola radio, a Maglite and a PR-24 to a couple pairs of hand cuffs and you had trouble keeping your pants up. I sold the MK III and went to a S&W 39-2 then back to a Model 66 S&W before finishing my career as a gun packer with a SIG 220.

All of these ramblings bring me around to the point that Bigslug made. Modern policing uses lighter, high-cap, bottom feeders, not heavy, round guns that shoot "only" a half a dozen shots. Most civilians want a gun like those carried by the police. Not many folks left who fancy a full sized, snubby, and most of us already have ours. This leaves a very small market.

[pettypace]

To me, "full-sized snubby" seems almost a contradiction in terms. But the OP did specify "full size grip, short barrel, full 6-shot capacity."

Here's a Webley Metropolitan Police model that meets those specs:



Despite being designed over 150 years ago, Webley actually got a lot right. The double action is smooth and the grip is much better than a Smith or Colt with no "filler" needed.

Some consider the stubby little .450 Adams cartridge "anemic." But Miha's 230 grain HBWC over a light charge of Bullseye gives about 550 f/s with the same wound mass and better penetration than the vaunted FBI load from a 4" barrel. So much for "anemic."

One thing Webley didn't get right is the funky little swing out ejector rod. After the first cylinder full, the Metropolitan Police model becomes a better club than firearm.

[racepres]

In thinking back, the only 2" full sized .357 I can recall being made by a U.S. Manufacturer was the Colt Lawman. Built on the MKIII frame, with fixed sights and a rounded grip, it was less than successful. The problem with the MKIII guns was the uniformly heavy trigger pull. They averaged 15 pounds, though I have read of some as light as 12 pounds. None that I ever examined went that light. Additionally, they had a clunky feel. That was not the butter smooth pull of a pre-war Smith, nor even the more jerky trigger on the post war OP's. To me, they felt like a Model 19 that was 10% overweight, like a super model who had let herself go. Eventually, they got around to revising the MKIII and made a MK V, which did have a decent trigger but that was too late. By then, the age of the wondernine had arrived and if it didn't hold 14 or more rounds, the cops weren't carrying it. (Because Heaven forfend that one should find himself "outgunned".) And the police were the main purchasers of duty handguns. If Colt had made the MK V action from the git-go, I wonder if The Security Six line would have ever got off the ground. But they didn't, so we'll never know.

I had a MKIII trooper 6 inch which I carried briefly, but soon sold. It was quite accurate when fired single action, especially with the Speer 146 grain HP's, but the heavy double action made rapid, "combat" shooting very hard. A 4 inch worked better in a patrol car, and was noticeably lighter. IIRC, the 6 inch Trooper weighed just about the same as the model 28, which weighed nearly 2 3/4 pounds. Add that, a couple of speed loaders of ammo, a Motorola radio, a Maglite and a PR-24 to a couple pairs of hand cuffs and you had trouble keeping your pants up. I sold the MK III and went to a S&W 39-2 then back to a Model 66 S&W before finishing my career as a gun packer with a SIG 220.

All of these ramblings bring me around to the point that Bigslug made. Modern policing uses lighter, high-cap, bottom feeders, not heavy, round guns that shoot "only" a half a dozen shots. Most civilians want a gun like those carried by the police. Not many folks left who fancy a full sized, snubby, and most of us already have ours. This leaves a very small market.

So The "Six Series" was Not full sized??? Or...Maybe Not Short Enough?? I do Not recall an even 2"

[tejano]

Here is mine.

[rintinglen]

The Ruger Speed and service sixes only came with 2 3/4 inch barrels; the K frame 357 Smiths were 2 1/2 -3 inches, but truth to tell, I'd forgotten about the 327s. They are honest 2 inch barrels. I do think the micro extractor rod will have troubles ejecting 357 casings. But in fairness, if 8 357's haven't got the job done, you probably won't fair any better with the second six, err, 8.

[FergusonTO35]

That's another reason why I was thinking to base on the .38SC instead of the .38SW - I don't think I've EVER seen a gun specifically chambered specifically for .38 Short Colt in all my travels. Per Wiki, it was concocted for converting the 1851 Navy to metallic cartridge use.
The main use today seems to be for powder puff loads for CAS in guns that are rated for considerably more steam. Of course, a resurrection of the rimmed 9mm Federal would address some of that, it would no longer be .38/.357 compatible.

What kind of pressure are you thinking? If it exceeds .38 Special +P then it could still be loaded into a gun that won't handle it.

[Tall]

I was shopping hard at the Ft Worth Gun Show at Amon Carter convention center back in 2015 for a Smith Model 19 2 1/2" barrel, nickel plated. I saw maybe 6 - 7 of them for sale at that show. It's a big place, maybe 1200 tables. If I had seen any for $1K I would have bought one. However, that weekend, none were priced less than $1250 and no one would take a grand for one.

[racepres]

I was shopping hard at the Ft Worth Gun Show at Amon Carter convention center back in 2015 for a Smith Model 19 2 1/2" barrel, nickel plated. I saw maybe 6 - 7 of them for sale at that show. It's a big place, maybe 1200 tables. If I had seen any for $1K I would have bought one. However, that weekend, none were priced less than $1250 and no one would take a grand for one.

Wow!!! Luckily I prefer longer barrels..Maybe someday, I come up with a Short DW Pork Chop!!

[WRideout]

That's another reason why I was thinking to base on the .38SC instead of the .38SW - I don't think I've EVER seen a gun specifically chambered specifically for .38 Short Colt in all my travels. Per Wiki, it was concocted for converting the 1851 Navy to metallic cartridge use.
The main use today seems to be for powder puff loads for CAS in guns that are rated for considerably more steam. Of course, a resurrection of the rimmed 9mm Federal would address some of that, it would no longer be .38/.357 compatible.

A good friend of mine was the maintenance man at a senior apartment building. One of lady residents was about to throw in the dumpster a like-new breaktop revolver(!). She gave it to him for free. I can't remember the make, but it was roll stamped on the barrel "38 short colt." I have shot it, and keep the brass for those occasions I want to shoot it in my Mod. 19 just for grins.
Wayne

[MT Gianni]

I searched long and hard for a Model 66 or 19 with a 2 1/2" bbl. I got a beautiful rb combat set up with the model 66 and found it just wasn't as accurate for me as a square butt 4". It got sold a couple of years later.

[HWooldridge]

In thinking back, the only 2" full sized .357 I can recall being made by a U.S. Manufacturer was the Colt Lawman. Built on the MKIII frame, with fixed sights and a rounded grip, it was less than successful. The problem with the MKIII guns was the uniformly heavy trigger pull. They averaged 15 pounds, though I have read of some as light as 12 pounds. None that I ever examined went that light. Additionally, they had a clunky feel. That was not the butter smooth pull of a pre-war Smith, nor even the more jerky trigger on the post war OP's. To me, they felt like a Model 19 that was 10% overweight, like a super model who had let herself go. Eventually, they got around to revising the MKIII and made a MK V, which did have a decent trigger but that was too late. By then, the age of the wondernine had arrived and if it didn't hold 14 or more rounds, the cops weren't carrying it. (Because Heaven forfend that one should find himself "outgunned".) And the police were the main purchasers of duty handguns. If Colt had made the MK V action from the git-go, I wonder if The Security Six line would have ever got off the ground. But they didn't, so we'll never know.

I had a MKIII trooper 6 inch which I carried briefly, but soon sold. It was quite accurate when fired single action, especially with the Speer 146 grain HP's, but the heavy double action made rapid, "combat" shooting very hard. A 4 inch worked better in a patrol car, and was noticeably lighter. IIRC, the 6 inch Trooper weighed just about the same as the model 28, which weighed nearly 2 3/4 pounds. Add that, a couple of speed loaders of ammo, a Motorola radio, a Maglite and a PR-24 to a couple pairs of hand cuffs and you had trouble keeping your pants up. I sold the MK III and went to a S&W 39-2 then back to a Model 66 S&W before finishing my career as a gun packer with a SIG 220.

All of these ramblings bring me around to the point that Bigslug made. Modern policing uses lighter, high-cap, bottom feeders, not heavy, round guns that shoot "only" a half a dozen shots. Most civilians want a gun like those carried by the police. Not many folks left who fancy a full sized, snubby, and most of us already have ours. This leaves a very small market.

I also bought a new Mk III Trooper in .357 with 6” barrel. I then bought George Nontes book on pistol smithing and Ed McGivern’s treatise on “fast and fancy”…after lots of polishing and spring changes later, the DA pull was pretty good. Good friend of mine worked for TDC so we got boodles of .38 and .357 ammo to practice with. I probably put 7-8K rounds down range over the course of two years then a coworker decided to throw money in my lap so down the road it went. As you mentioned, the SA trigger was great and the piece was extremely accurate - it would stack through one little hole at 25 steps and I won a few bets with it.

[FergusonTO35]

Been shooting and carrying my 856 alot lately. With reduced power trigger return spring from Wolff it has an excellent trigger in both single and double action. That said, mine is a steel frame and weighs not much less than a 15 round compact 9mm. I'm going to get an aluminum frame Ultra Lite 856 this spring.

[jdgabbard]

Been shooting and carrying my 856 alot lately. With reduced power trigger return spring from Wolff it has an excellent trigger in both single and double action. That said, mine is a steel frame and weighs not much less than a 15 round compact 9mm. I'm going to get an aluminum frame Ultra Lite 856 this spring.

I have an Ultra-Lite 85. It's a handy gun, but with stock springs it is a pain to shoot. The trigger pull is just too great for such a small grip. Which causes quite a few flyers. That said, I have upgrade the spring kit in it. I more often carry my SP101 instead of the Taurus. Though the Taurus is built well...I probably should shoot it more, but it doesn't get as much range time as my other firearms.

[FergusonTO35]

Mebbe I just got a lemon, but the SP-101 I used to have was the worst handgun I've ever owned and it was an "old" WBR era gun that everybody says is so wonderful. Light springs only produced misfires and no noticeable improvement in the gritty 40 pound trigger pull. Shot way low with everything I tried in it. Got my money back out of it on a trade and never looked back.

[jdgabbard]

Mebbe I just got a lemon, but the SP-101 I used to have was the worst handgun I've ever owned and it was an "old" WBR era gun that everybody says is so wonderful. Light springs only produced misfires and no noticeable improvement in the gritty 40 pound trigger pull. Shot way low with everything I tried in it. Got my money back out of it on a trade and never looked back.

I'd say you probably got a lemon. I love mine. Easy to shoot, easy to carry - though it is a 38spl only gun. That said, I have a tougher time hitting anything with it further out than 15 yards. Some of that is because of the short sight radius, some of that is because my own capabilities, or lack thereof. But overall the gun is a great gun.

[rintinglen]

I am no fan of the 38/357 Sp101. Too heavy for a 38, too light for a 357, only 5 shots; it doesn't really do what I want a small frame revolver to do. I have a 4 inch 327 with adjustable sights that I think highly of, but only after a lot of work and a spring kit to make for a decent trigger pull.
Out of the box, the triggers stink. I truly regret the demise pf the Security Six line up. A little bit heavier? Perhaps, but a lot better shooter. and for a hideout backup, give me a J-frame Airweight any day. The one gun that I have carried more than any other is my old Model 38. It needs a lot of attention now. Hundreds, if not thousands, of 38 +p's have taken their toll, but it was there when I needed it. I'll die with that one.

[racepres]

While decidedly Not a Full Size Snubby.. We Use this Taurus aplenty!! I do Not believe it better nor worser than Most that have passed thru here.... But... it is Decidedly Not a Speed Six!!!!
Edit...Forgot the darn picture... yea Not ours...But exactly like it, Except the Hogue grip is preferred around here!!

[FergusonTO35]

I'd say you probably got a lemon. I love mine. Easy to shoot, easy to carry - though it is a 38spl only gun. That said, I have a tougher time hitting anything with it further out than 15 yards. Some of that is because of the short sight radius, some of that is because my own capabilities, or lack thereof. But overall the gun is a great gun.

I'm sure that is the case and I have known alot of folks who loved the SP. Still, I think it needs to go on a diet as does the GP. Both are just too firggin' heavy for what they are in my opinion unless you are actually shooting stout loads.

[FergusonTO35]

I am no fan of the 38/357 Sp101. Too heavy for a 38, too light for a 357, only 5 shots; it doesn't really do what I want a small frame revolver to do. I have a 4 inch 327 with adjustable sights that I think highly of, but only after a lot of work. I truly regret the demise of the Security Six line up. A little bit heavier? Perhaps, but a lot better shooter. .

The Sixes are my favorite wheelguns of all time. My 1988 Service Six .38 stainless is one of the last handguns I would ever part with. I don't even shoot it that much, but it is just such an excellent example of the breed.